Mis-Information Overload With John Lavenia

Most people I talk to don’t think of “sales and marketing” as a noble profession.

At best, they’re reluctantly mentioning they’re trying to market online, because they got to pay the bills.

At worst, they’re so ashamed and scared of rejection, they burry their head in the sand and keep quiet.

Why is that?

What causes people to resent the #1 most important activity in their online biz?

After all, if no one’s buying what you got – you ain’t got a business, right?!

John And I go deep into the SELLING PSYCHE of the modern business opportunity marketer.

Listen and discover how to enlighten a prospect without coming across needy or creepy.

How to help people without bullying them into the purchase.

And How to sign more people up into your business opportunity in good spirit than you ever thought possible.


This program is brought to you by Thepodcastfactory.com.

John: You know, when people say, “John, what’s the one thing I can do?” The one

thing you can do is do everything. “What’s the one book I should read?” Read

them all.

Igor: Welcome back to List Building Lifestyle with Igor Kheifets and John Levine. I

am happy to be hosting John today because he’s somebody I’ve spotted for

the first time when DubLi launched for the first time and it’s like, this guy

knows how to market. So, naturally, when we decided to launch the List

Building Lifestyle show, I committed to getting John to come and share the


John, good morning. How are you doing today?

John: I’m doing great, and it’s actually late night over here. I am happy to be here

with your List Building Lifestyle listeners. I hope to deliver some insights and

some value to everybody here.

Igor: Oh, dude. You are in just the right place. You are a die-hard metal head, right?

John: How did you know that? I thought that was a secret.

Igor: I study. I study my guests. (Laughing) Come on….

John: (laughing)

Igor: But most importantly, you’re not here because of your taste in music, which

is okay, I can appreciate that. You’re here because you know how to sell.

Specifically, you have a great skill, which I believe each and every one of our

listeners can benefit from and that is selling one to many. One to many

selling, which means, you can put up a video and it convinces people, or

triggers something in people to do business with you. Before we go into that,

I’d love it if you could share your story and share with us how did you get

into the internet marketing scene.

John: That’s a great question and I’ll keep it as brief as I can. I suppose I became a

salesman at a very young age just because I had a difficult childhood, Igor. I

grew up on the streets of New Jersey and I had to essentially learn how to

communicate my way out of situations which were not good for me. Dealing

with abuse and that sort of thing. Once I got into my adolescence, I started to

find personal growth and different, more life empowering ideas and

philosophies. I really clung to it and I sort of combined the two. My ability to

communicate just out of necessity with some more resourceful ways to apply

that in business. That would be a good thing, right? I noticed that my jobs

that I had, I had various jobs throughout my life; my professional training is

as a mechanic. I was actually a diesel engineer on a tug boat fleet in New York

Harbor. I noticed that all these businesses that I was working for, I could

probably run these businesses better than the people that were running


I remember, my last job, I was working for a guy who was a drunk [3:00] and

he was on his third divorce and I was like, I have to do something for myself.

At the time, I was dabbling in the music business and, as you already

enlightened our guests, in the heavy metal genre. It’s not a very profitable

genre, so it’s more of a hobby. I decided to get into a franchise, which cost me

like $100,000 that I didn’t have, went into a lot of debt, working 80 hours a

week but still, it was entrepreneurial. Then, I got into other forms of

business. I was later introduced to the whole concept of network marketing,

MLN, that sort of thing. I did not have success with that; with the traditional

sense of it. Ultimately, I was introduced to online marketing, affiliate

marketing and direct sales, and direct response marketing. I just, I clung to it.

Now was a way that I could use my communication with a larger group of

people and do something that I felt really good about. Something that I felt

passionate about and communicate with intention to an ideal target audience

which was vast. The whole world opened up to me at that point and I was

able to do very well and continue to do very well with the companies that I


That was, I suppose, the shortest version of the story that I’ve ever told.

There was a lot more details, but people can certainly find out more about

that on the web. That would be my transition. Going from just the necessity

of needing to learn how to communicate effectively with people, at a very

young age, and then combining that with a purpose driven lifestyle and

intention. That, of course, turned into success in sales.

Igor: Interesting. What I’m hearing you say, John, is that first off, you had to learn

to talk your way out of fighting which is something that I can totally resonate

with because I think I’ve lost every possible fight I’ve ever fought in my life. I

think there’s one fight I won, but only because the other guy was smaller

than me. That’s like the only time I remember. I was always envious of the

kids who could do that. Who could actually talk their way out of fighting a

bigger guy, because to me, every fight ended with humiliation and it wasn’t


John: Well, in my case, I was a child and I had an abusive parent. Still, also with a

low confidence level, low self-esteem, being in the society of American

schools here. I grew up in America. Now, of course, I know Krav Maga, in fact,

my instructor; I believe you’re in Israel…

Igor: Yeah

John: My instructor’s been there a bunch of times. You’re in the center of Krav


Igor: Yes. This is the Krav Maga capital right here.

John: That’s it. That’s it. There are things that we can do, it’s interesting that we’re

on that topic, there’s things we can do to increase our confidence, not only

physically in this case, but also our confidence emotionally and

psychologically and physiologically. It all kind of goes together. Anyway, back

to your point. For me, it was not a casual or flippant evolution. It was actually

a matter of survival. That’s how I got started.

Igor: Nice. [6:00] Well, it’s not nice, but I’m saying, your back was to the wall, you

had to overcome this. Do or die kind of thing.

John: Yeah. I think the same thing in business. I think people, when their backs are

right against the wall, they start to get creative ideas. Unfortunately, that’s

what it takes for people, often, that’s what it takes for people to start getting

creative. I don’t know that there’s any casual or effortless victory. I think

people really have to, I think what some people have called divine business

satisfaction. They’ve really got to be dissatisfied with where they’re at and

now, when the discomfort of changing is less than the discomfort of staying

where they’re at, then they’re going to make a change.

Igor: Yes. Circling back to what you said, you said early on, you had to learn how to

do this and eventually that skill led you to becoming a skilled salesman as

well. Would you say you’re a natural born salesman?

John: I think, to some extent, everybody is. I think a lot of people get it beaten out

of them. I think, certainly, if you listen to the media and public opinion about

sales men and marketing, you don’t want to be perceived as a used car

salesman or a politician or something. It gets a bit of a stigma. I think a lot of

people, probably through internalizing refusals in sales. Maybe you came up

as a young boy and you asked and she refused; we internalized it and we

turned refusal into rejection.

People don’t like to be rejected. I think sometimes people will, especially in

the home business world, they’ll say, well, I don’t sell or I can’t sell, or I don’t

like to sell, or I’ll get involved in this opportunity as long as I don’t have to

sell. For that matter, here in the network or the internet marketing world,

like with List Building; I’ll go ahead and I’ll build a list and I’ll mail my list, as

long as I don’t have to talk to anybody. My goodness, it’s all communication,

right? My people, I remember when I went for one of my first sales jobs, Igor,

I had an interview with the manager there. He sat me down and he said

alright. Here’s your interview. Questions number one: do people buy because

of logic or because of emotion? I said because of emotion. He said, okay, what

percentage of the time? I said 100%. He said you’re hired. It’s all about


Igor: Dude. You are one smart cookie. It took me like, six years of reading books to

get that.

John: Well, that’s; a two question interview and I passed. So, when we think about

that, it’s all communication. What is sales really? I know, I can go on a major

talk on this right now because I’ve taught it so many times. I’ve done whole

workshops on this. What is sales, really? Here’s the best definition I’ve ever

found. I think this will be instructive for your listeners. Sales, in its purest

form, is the transfer of enthusiasm. I want you to think about this.

Enthusiasm, I’m enthusiastic about something. I know something. I have a

higher state of knowingness than the prospects, the potential customer, who

right now is living in a state of ignorance. Maybe a painful state of ignorance.

The know not, they don’t know what I know.

If they only knew the benefits that could be theirs, [9:00] which I know,

clearly I know. If I can communicate that, and transfer some of my

knowingness, my enthusiasm to them to the extent that they would feel like

maybe I should transact business. Let me exchange money to get, I want

these benefits now. I didn’t know they existed, but now that I met John, now I

know. That’s the communication. What that is, is an emotional shift. Raising

someone and their level of knowingness, raising someone in their level of

enthusiasm, that is significant. Sales is actually the process of enlightenment.

We’re taking someone who’s living in a state of not-knowingness, we call that

ignorance; and we’re enlightening them to the benefits that could be theirs.

You can think about it really simply by just looking at the word enthusiasm,

in the English language anyway, the last four letters are i-a- s-m, which is an

acronym. If you’ve ever been to sales training you’ve probably heard this a

hundred times but, I Am Sold Myself. So, i-a- s-m; I Am Sold Myself. I can’t

transfer that enthusiasm to you unless I have. I’ve got to be sold myself. That

may sound a bit lofty or something, do we always actually have to be a

customer of our own product that we’re attempting to sell? Not necessarily,

but you have to be sold on the reality of the solution. Like, for example, if you

were selling cars on a car lot. You drove a certain brand of car and you

happen to be employed by a company of a different brand.

Do you believe in that brand to the extent that it would solve the

transportation problems of that customer that’s standing in front of you? Do

you believe that whole-heartedly? That if you needed to have a

transportation solution, that that product would certainly serve? Great.

You’ve got some enthusiasm. But you can’t fake this. Igor, I think that’s the

thing that so many people are deluding themselves with. They think that they

can fake it till they make it, which I know is a saying that gets kicked around.

I’ve never operated that way. It’s always been, I’ve always lived with

authenticity. I think, when people attempt to fake it, there’s always one

person who knows they’re faking it. It’s themselves. They can’t trick that

person. Part of this communication, part of this ability to transfer enthusiasm

means that you’ve got it yourself. That’s real. That’s a real thing. That

requires a little bit of thought. A little bit of study. I can’t outflow a powerful

communication unless I first inflow it.

Now, I’m on a tangent, but if you think about that, people sometimes ask me,

John, how do you know all these quotes, you’re like a walking book. You

quote things and you’ve got the right answer. Somebody gives you an

objection and immediately you know exactly what to say. I want to do that.

Like, I can give them a script or something. In fact, when I wrote my first

book, Integrity is Everything, I had somebody say, John, I had no idea you

were a great author. I said, well, I’ve read lots of books. Where did I get these

words? I didn’t invent them. All these ideas come into us and we load our

guns (so to speak) and then, when the moment of truth happens, we’ve

already got lots of ammo, don’t we? [12:00] We haven’t been on hobby and

holiday time for years and years. We’ve been in the game the whole time. I

don’t think that being successful in sales and marketing is a part-time effort

for the dilatant. I believe it’s really a way of life. It’s a way of being. More

important than what you do is who’s doing it. Who’s doing it? Why can… oh,

man, I could talk for an hour, but I won’t. I promise.

Igor: Please, please. Go ahead. I’m taking notes, dude.

John: Well, think about it like this. Back in 1910, Wallace D. Wattles wrote a book

called The Science of Getting Rich. People can download it for free online. It’s

long out of copyright. He said in that book that two people engaged in the

same business, they can even be in the same city, the same town, whatever.

Two people engaged in the same business can have completely different

results. One gets rich while the other remains poor. Why? Great question to

ask, right? Why? He said, the people who get rich, they do things in a certain

way, while the people who remain poor don’t.

He also said in order to do things in a certain way, you must first think in a

certain way. I pondered this for a while, Igor, and I’ve read the book several

times. I was thinking, what is this certain way? Is it a specific way, is it a

special way, is it a secret way? Especially online, you’re thinking, there’s got

to be a secret way, right. Have you seen a sales pitch without the word secret

in it? You have if you’ve seen mine, because again, it is a thorn in my side a

little bit when I see people leaning on that word secret a lot, but the public

likes secrets.

Anyway, I started really thinking about this. What is this certain way? I’ve got

to know. I was doing well in my business, so I picked up what is probably the

best self-help book ever written. I don’t know how many of your listeners

have it. It’s called the dictionary. I opened it up to the word certain and

certainty. Right? I really want to understand what the author’s talking about.

Wouldn’t you know it, Igor, one of the definitions for certain is the absence of


Igor: No way.

John: I said, ahh. That is the certain way. When I look at the successful salesmen

engaged in the same activity and the same doing-ness as the poor salesman,

the one who is doing it successfully is doing it in this certain way. They have

the absence of doubt. They have developed the confidence, we can also say

the enthusiasm, they are sold themselves. They have developed that so

thoroughly; they’re not faking it anymore. They’ve developed it to the point

where they can now extravert. They can put their attention on the customer,

their wants and needs and not always introverting, wondering am I doing it

right. Should I be doing it better? Should I be doing it differently? This, of

course, leads directly into selling one to many. Getting in front of a video

camera, looking at that camera lens, and that is your ideal prospect. That’s no

longer a piece of machinery. Being able to sell to that camera lens as if they

were sitting across the desk from you and you were ready to hand them the

pen to close the deal.

How does that happen? That happens because we become [15:00] so sold

ourselves, that we are quite enough. We don’t have to fake this. Ourselves,

our offer, every part of that, every asset that’s in that potential transaction is

good enough the way it is. It doesn’t need embellishment. It is just right and

this customer is going to benefit. It is now my obligation to not only hear

them fully and put my attention on their wants and needs and be able to

extract from them, the hot buttons and the things that we talk about in sales,

that help build that relationship and that emotional connection to the

potential transaction and the benefits that are going to be theirs, and transfer

that enthusiasm where I’m no longer introverted.

This is such an important point. Again, I don’t think people can fake it. I know

some people have tried. Clichés and platitudes and it’s all going to work out;

in my experience, this is real. If what you’re selling isn’t good enough. If the

truth isn’t good enough, go sell something else. That’s the way I look at it. It’s

got to be real. That’s why, in my List Building Lifestyle, I’ve got, what I would

call, way above average conversions. It’s simply because of who’s doing it.

Again, I’m not looking to set myself up as the ideal, I’m just letting you know

that this is the road that I’ve gone down and it bears fruit. It’s pretty reliable.

So. There you go.

Igor: Wow. First off, there’s like a ton of gold in what you just said. I wrote down

two pages’ worth of notes as you were talking.

John: Good news, we were recording. You could just listen to it a hundred times.

I’m always interested in hearing my own recordings. I’m always interested in

hearing what I said. I don’t, I never know what I’m going to say until it comes


Igor: Seriously? I hate listening to myself. It’s like nails on a chalkboard when I

hear my voice on a podcast, but yeah, everybody should listen to each and

every single episode of List Building Lifestyle at least fourteen times, just so

it sticks.

John: Exactly.

Igor: (Laughing) I want to circle back to what you said here. I have so many

questions that I want to ask you and so little time. Okay. So, here’s what I

want to know.

Let’s just say that we’re selling good product. Right? We’ve joined a company,

we believe in the company, we believe in the message, we believe in the

leader; but we haven’t made money ourselves with that company just yet. It’s

hard to get that certainty without seeing some sort of result or some sort of

proof that hey, this actually works for us. So, how does one go about getting

that certainty without having instant gratification as they join?

John: Instant gratification is over-rated. I can tell you, back when I got started in

high ticket direct sales, we were selling $22,000 packages of info product and

seminar. These kinds of packages in the personal growth and self-

achievement sort of field. Which is something I’m passionate about. I’ve been

on that path since 1986. I got started in that and I went and sought out the

top producers in that program. In this case, we’re talking about there’s a

third party product provider. There’s a corporation that creates a product

[18:00] and here I am as an affiliate, a distributor, a salesperson of that. I

went and I sought out the top producers in that program. These are guys and

gals making about $50,000 a month on average. I was not yet making

$50,000 a month. I asked them some questions. What are you doing? What’s

your daily method of operation? What are your best practices? After talking

to a few of them, I came up with five common traits that they all exhibited.

There were five common high integrity actions that they were doing


I decided that I’m going to go ahead and make that my daily method of

operation and within three months, this is years and years ago, but

three/four months I became the top guy in that program. I broke, the record

was like $111,000 in a month and I made like $135,000 or something in a

month. So, how did that happen? I just became more consistent in doing high

integrity actions than my predecessors. Then, I claimed that title. In fact, I

remember people asking me about that. How did you become that top

person? I’ve just been more consistent than anybody. I suppose of somebody

became more consistent than me, then they’d be the top earner, but right

now, I am.

I don’t, again, I’m not looking to say I’m special or something, because I don’t

believe that. I just think that, again, I’ll refer to my first book; Integrity is

Everything. I believe that if we all have the same data, and certainly in the age

of information which we live in, data is ubiquitous. Everywhere you look,

there’s information. We’ve all read the same books. Let’s say for example,

Think and Grow Rich or any of the other classics like the one I mentioned

before. The Science of Getting Rich. There’s many. We read this stuff. Some

people apply it. Some people have integrity to it. In other words, as within, so

without. You signed up to do this deal. You signed up to be a salesperson, a

marketer, let’s say, for example, in the home business world. You’re going to

be an MLM rep for some company. So, you signed up to do that.

What is your job? What hat are you wearing? What post are you manning at

this point? It’s marketer. Have integrity to that post. Right? If you don’t

understand what the word is, look it up in the dictionary. Interestingly, Igor,

I’ve gone to many home business events and I’ve asked people in the network

marketing world, what sort of marketing are you doing. The kind of look at

me like a deer in headlights. Like they don’t understand.

Well, you know, I made a list and I’m trying to get leads. They’re trying; that’s

very revealing. What is marketing? Maybe that’s where we should go. What is

marketing? Marketing is the reaching into the public and impinging on their

space to put their space to put their attention on what you offer. Purpose of

which is to increase the demand for what you supply. That is marketing. So, if

we just get that, and we have integrity to that, [21:00] well, am I impinging?

Am I reaching into the public? Am I putting attention on something? Am I

increasing the demand for what we have a supply of here? If not, then I’m out

of integrity. I don’t deserve the big payday. This is the big, big lesson I had to


None of this is comfortable. Albert E. N. Gray, back in the 1950s said to a

group of Prudential Insurance Reps, that was his company. He said, look. I

have found the common denominator of success, everyone. Here it is.

Successful people have formed a habit of doing things that failures don’t like

to do. There it is. Now you all know. Guess what! It’s not because these

successful people are lucky that they just like doing these things. They don’t

like doing these things either. They just do them anyway, to the extent that

they formed the habit. Again, there’s the consistency. When we do that, we’ve

separated ourselves from the people who will subordinate their goals to

being comfortable and having pleasing methods.

Successful people subordinate being comfortable to reaching their goal. Their

goal comes first. That brings up another topic. What’s your goal? Ask a lot of

people what’s your goal; well, I want to get rich, I want to quit my job and a

lot of vague ambiguity but not a real quantifiable goal. Again, I’ll refer to the

home business world. The only reason any sane person would follow you is if

you’ve got a destination. What is a leader? A leader is a person who decides

the destination and starts going in that direction.

A lot of people, when they come into entrepreneurship, especially if they’re

transferring out of a job, lifestyle, employee mindset; they bring with them

that mindset and it’s sort of an employee or consumer mindset. They don’t

develop that leader mindset right out of the gate. That’s kind of what you’re

asking me. How do we develop that leader mindset? It’s very simply by

determining a destination and realizing that regardless of our circumstances;

you haven’t made money yet, that’s fine. That’s more reason to get

aggressive. That’s more reason to learn everything you can about the

advantages and benefits of your program. So that when you do sit down in

front of that lead, that you generated because maybe you got a solo-ad from

Igor. Maybe you placed an advertisement. You did something to impinge on

the public, thank you. You’ve done that, now you’ve got a lead. What are you

going to do with them? You damn well better have your guns loaded at that

point. You need to deliver. Now it’s on you. This can’t be done with an

employee mindset.

I’ll give you this, and I think this will sort of be a blanket statement. We can

apply this to every area of life. I talked about employees versus

entrepreneurs in terms of mindset. I want you to think about it like

consumers versus producers. These are opposites. Right? We come into a

business and we think I’m going to learn the secret system of that special

man or that special woman over there who’s already making the money.

They’ve got the secrets [24:00] and I’m going to get it from them. I’m going to

just use their system. I don’t want to sell it; they’ll sell it for me. Right? Is that

a producer or a consumer? That’s a consumer that thinks that way.

We can boil it down to; Ralph Emerson called it the law of laws. He said the

law of laws is cause and effect. Remember, we’ve got employee, we’ve got

entrepreneur. Opposites. We’ve got consumers, we’ve got producers.

Opposites. We’ve got causes and we’ve got effects. Opposites. When people

think like consumers, there’s a time to be a consumer. When you go out to

buy your T.V. and your Apple iPads and everything else, you’re the consumer.

That’s fine. But, when it’s business time, you damn well better be the

producer. The producer is cause. So many people attempt to operate a

business as the effect. Effects do not create effects. If people just get this

through their head that they are the cause; my goodness, their whole world

changes. They no longer look sideways at what other people think. Yes,

they’ll get instruction. Hey, Igor, what do you think of this? When I went into

that direct sales company, talking to the top earners, what do you guys do?

Yeah, give me some instruction. I don’t need to be a pioneer here, I’ll be the

student, that’s fine. But then apply the stuff in a way that only you can, with

your own significant and unique talents and abilities and expressions. Right?

There are things that; I’ve had people come to me and say, I saw that offer

many times, but when I saw it from you, I bought it. It was you. They’ve said

it many different ways. You get the point? More important than what you do

is who is doing it. Is it a causative person? Is it a person that can induce other

to make decisions because they themselves are decisive? They themselves

can induce thought in themselves and therefore can cause cognition in

another person? People, look Igor, the world is starving for leadership. If not

you, then who? Somebody’s got to do something here and nothing happens

until somebody makes a sale.

I honor everyone who takes the initiative to become great at what they do. In

this case, we’re talking about sales and marketing. I think that is one of the

highest, most noble professions. Certainly the highest paying, once you get

good at it. I can’t think of a better thing, or more intriguing thing to put your

attention on, especially in the age of information or may we call it; the age of

misinformation. There are so many people being led astray by absolute

nonsense. If you’ve got something of value, it’s your moral obligation to

transfer enthusiasm to another person about it. Give them the opportunity to

exchange some money with you to receive those benefits. That’s what I’ve got

to say about it.

Igor: Wow. John, dammit, this is; I’m sort of speechless now because, I can truly

feel the energy. When you talk about these things, I can truly feel how damn

certain you are about it. No joke. [27:00] Not too many experts that come on

the show actually project that. I’ve interviewed people that sort of fumbled

through the show. You are very certain about what you’re saying. I can feel

and I can see why somebody would join you because of you and not join

some company because of whatever the company’s doing. Last word of

advice for our listeners. How do we get as confident and certain about

whatever it is that we’re selling right now, whether it’s a list, email, video,

face to face, speaking on stage, etc. How do we get certain about it? What’s

like, your number one, I don’t want to say secret, but….

John: (Laughing) I got secrets…. (Laughing)

Igor: What’s your number one strategy to becoming certain?

John: That’s a great question. As I said before, enthusiasm. I am sold myself. The

most important sale you can make is to sell yourself. Before you go open your

mouth and try selling somebody else. Whenever I’m looking at an offer that I

may want to put out into the public or send to my list; I’ll see what’s good and

right about this. Is this something that I would buy if I needed it? In fact, if it

will benefit me, I go ahead and buy it first. That sort of thing. I get complete

on, once again, what the offer is. I’m a part of that since I’m the person

offering it. I’ve got to feel good about it.

The other thing is, this may sound too simple or even lofty; but it’s like an

integrity list. I wrote about this is chapter two or three of the book. You’ve

probably heard of people who make a gratitude list. Like, they’re moping

around all day and they’re miserable and they’re not terrible attractive to

customers or their spouse or whatever. So, they can make a gratitude list and

sort of lift themselves out of that ingratitude or that chronic unhappiness or


I took it in a different direction. I said, how about an integrity list? Here are

all the things I did right today. Let’s see. I ate my breakfast and I didn’t choke

to death. So, I’m successful. I did that well. I drove my car to the gym to lift

weights. I didn’t crash the car. I lifted the weights. Look. I’m doing good stuff.

These are all estimable things that we can do to increase our self-esteem.

Quite often, they go unacknowledged. How about we just acknowledge all the

things we do right. In fact, we are an authority in some areas of our life,

which ventures into other areas of our life, for example, our business. Do we

have a solution? Are we able to communicate something in a way that

nobody else in the world can? We know we do stuff right, look at the integrity

list. Look at all these things I didn’t screw up. There are a couple of things,

and the third thing, Igor. This may sound too simple, but what’s the worst

that can happen?

So, I’m a total dopey. I just showed up here, I signed up to do this thing and

I’m going to sell the thing and I haven’t made any money yet. [30:00] what’s

the worst that can happen? Is a great white shark going to jump out of my

desk and eat me if I get the email wrong or something? No. Everything’s

going to be fine. Furthermore, if I’m confident in my vision.

Remember, I talked about leadership. If I’ve confident that I’ve determined

the destination and I know where I’m going, as if it’s a guaranteed future

outcome; does it really matter what this one particular prospect or potential

customer does in this conversation? How does this one email effect the list?

No. It doesn’t because I reach my goals regardless. Nowhere in my goal,

hopefully you’ve got a written goal, but nowhere does is say if Bob Smith

buys my deal, then I’ll reach my goal. He’s nowhere in there. When I’m talking

to Bob Smith, there’s an air of non-attachment. This is so vital. We could talk

about this for an hour. Non-attachment.

Here’s a tip for everybody. If you’re feeling really nervous about your email

or getting in front of that video camera, oh my goodness; hang a poster

behind the camera, on the other side of the wall from your office. Just get a

big piece of poster board and write on it Non-attachment as a reminder. 200

years from now, none of this means anything anyway. We’re all dust. You’re

here to have the experience. Have a good one. You’re going to have some

problems too, that’s one of the highest functions a human is capable of is

solving problems. Congratulations. You get to solve problems. What’s the big

deal? We make such a big deal of stuff. Me too. I need to hear this. I’m glad I’m

saying this. I needed to hear this. I get really serious sometimes. What do we

do? Non-attachment. When’s the best time to make a sale? Right after you

made a sale. Induce that state right now. I just put the $100,000 in the bank. I

don’t need this sale. Great, let’s go sell something now. That’s the way to do it.

It’s about the posture, it’s about who’s doing it and it’s about that confidence.

That is probably the number one thing that any sales person or marketer

must have. It’s only through that non-attachment, Igor, that we can then take

an objective look at our work. Like that video I just produced that didn’t

convert, and say, ah. Look at this market test. Here we can see a video that

doesn’t convert. Congratulations John, that was a week well spend on

learning what doesn’t convert. Not being so attached. Even to our own work.

That was one thing that I did as an amateur, Igor. I was like, oh, this video’s

going to be great, or this squeeze page, I’m going to get all the leads; and then

it was a bomb. I internalized that. Remember I talked about the difference

between refusal and rejection. Rejection’s personal. So, now I’m taking it

personally. When I got it, when I really got it that all marketing is a test and

my opinion about that video is utterly irrelevant; the only opinion I’m really

interested in is the customer who’s got a credit card in their hand and who

can give me some money. That’s the opinion I’m interested in. [33:00]

My work now becomes more scientific. Right? Like Claude Hopkins. Scientific

advertising. It becomes more methodical and less attached. What a relief to

get that attachment, that emotion off of us and be more objective about what

we do. Again, I’m not perfect at this, but I know the principles and to the

extent that I have integrity to them, my life works, and to the extent that I get

lazy in these areas. These areas of knowing this, these areas of practice, to

that extent, I get to experience difficulty just like anybody can. There would

be my advice for everybody. I know, that was the one secret; you know, when

people say, John, what’s the one thing I can do? Do everything. The one thing

you can do is do everything. What’s the one book I should read? Read them

all. That’s the one thing you should do.

Once you’ve got that for a couple of decades, then you’ll really kind of know

something or maybe you’ll end up like Socrates who said I know nothing but

the fact of my own ignorance. That’s where Socrates got; he had so much

knowledge that he was like, I know one thing that is that I don’t know

anything. There you go Igor; I hope that helps.

Igor: Oh yeah. Absolutely. It’s funny that you mentioned about non-attachment

and how you’re like, oh, I produced this video and it’s going to be the most

amazing sales video in the world but… for me, it’s always like the complete

opposite. It’s like the videos and the emails; just yesterday I wrote an

amazing email. It was an email that I modeled after Aladdin, Disney’s, a

cartoon which my daughter loves and I used to love as kids as well. I wrote

that email, and I was like, man, this email’s going to kill it. Guess what? It

bombed. So, every time I’m getting my hopes up, I’m like that’s the new

winner. That’s the new control. No, it always bombs. The ones that I’m like, I

don’t know if that’s going to work; these usually go really well.

John: Isn’t that interesting? That’s the non-attachment right there. It’s like, I need

to send an email and I really don’t feel like it; so you send it out and suddenly

everybody’s buying. What is that? I’ll tell you what it is, it’s non-attachment.

It’s you being present and not being so damn serious.

Igor: It’s allowing, I would call it.

John: Yeah, allowing. There you go. We can get into the law of attraction here. We

can allow stuff, hey, that’s cool. So, look, however this applies to people’s

lives, to their experience of it, bravo. All I can tell you is, Wayne Gretsky said,

you miss every shot you don’t take. So, take the shot. Form the habit of doing

things that failures don’t like to do. For example, making videos that bomb.

Nobody likes doing that. Do it anyway. You’ll be great.

Igor: I agree. This piece of advice, I think the single most effective piece of advice

you’re giving us today is that successful people do the things that losers hate

to do. I noticed that it’s like, I naturally gravitate… is that a word?

John: Gravitate, perhaps.

Igor: Gravitated. Thank you. Gravitated towards acting that way. [36:00] Once I

started reading books and I became divinely dissatisfied, as you put it earlier,

about my situation. Later on, people approach me and they ask, dude how are

you; I admire you for doing this and this; I watched you do this and that; they

almost disqualify themselves. Wouldn’t you say that people often disqualify

themselves out of the ability to do the exact same thing?

John: Yeah. That’s an interesting failure mechanism. It’s something that I call

celebrity-ism in the book. That is where, the media is great at reinforcing this

by the way, where there are these few special people over here. We call them

celebrities. They’re special. They’re in a special group. They hang out

together. You’re not in that group. That’s not you. But these special people

over there. We can get magazines to read about celebrity gossip and who’s

divorcing who. These people, their lives are important. They’re more

important than yours. You can’t do this stuff. Maybe if you got lucky and you

were discovered someday. This is celebrity-ism. This is by design. This keeps

the masses in the large group called the masses and the few special people in

the top 1, 2, 3, percent, whatever. Then the masses can say those people are

bad or unethical; there’s some reason they’re rich and successful because

they’re different than us. This is like class separation right here.

The same thing happens often in business. I remember when I went to my

first MLM rally, when I joined my first MLM company. There was thousands

of people in this big auditorium. You can picture this. Thousands, maybe

20,000 people. A big rally. They’re all chanting and we’re going to be rich and

all this. Then, in the corner, up by the stage, there was this one small area

that was roped off with like velvet ropes, like at a big gala. Like an academy

awards ceremony or something where you can’t go past the velvet ropes.

That’s where the special people are. Inside this special roped off area were

the top earners. There were like fifteen people or so in there and they were

making like $20,000 a month. OH, my goodness, these people are so special.

Here’s all the masses, they’re not in that group. They can’t get into the special

ropes. There it is again. Celebrity-ism.

The thing that we’ve got to do, if we’re experiencing that sort of self-

disqualification, is find what are these imaginary walls that we’ve erected

between who we think we are and who we think those special people are. I

remember before when I talked before about seeking out and approaching

the top earners in that direct sales company to find out what they were

doing; I approached them as a peer. As a peer, not as a subordinate, not as

just some hopeful guy. I approached them as the next top earner. I knew it.

They didn’t know it yet. I was a nobody, but in a couple months, they knew it.

They really, really knew it.

So, when we drop those imaginary walls of demarcation between us and who

we think the special people are, guess which group we enter. We enter the

velvet ropes, metaphorically, then physically. [39:00] Now, when I go to an

event, I’m now on the other side of the velvet ropes. Not that I want to be;

otherwise it takes me two hours to get to the men’s room just because of a

mob scene. That’s a decision that we can make. Again, there are problems

with that. Think about the problems. Let’s say that you’re in some program

where you’re a top earner and there are thousands of people who are not top

earners. It takes two hours to get to the bathroom because everyone wants to

talk and shake your hand and everything. These are the problems that will be

yours, my friend, should you accept this mission and accomplish it.

Igor: Sounds like a great problem to have, John.

John: These are the problems. Think about your taxes. You want to talk about

problems? Think about taxes.

Igor: Let’s keep this show positive, dude. I don’t want to talk about taxes.

John: If people have a hard time focusing on the positive, I can give them negative

stuff to focus on that will also help them reach their goal. You’re going to

have two hours to get to the bathroom and you’re going to have a massive tax

bill if you’re successful. Just think about that, you’ll do great.

Igor: (Laughing) Oh man. I love your style dude. I love it. Okay.

John: Thank you.

Igor: We’re out of time like twenty minutes ago, so I’m going to wrap up the show.

First off, John, truly honored that you sat down and invested the time to do

this. You just, I’m blown away by what you shared today. So many great

success principles that, when applied, they just work. I know because a lot of

what you shared is what I do on a daily basis here.

I just want to remind everyone listening; guys, you should go ahead and pick

up Integrity is everything on Amazon and you should also check out John’s

blog at boldstatementmarketing.com. Just Google the name, John Levine. This

dude is hot.

John: (Laughing) Thank you. Check out the good for business podcast.

Igor: Right. You’ve got a podcast. How could I miss that?

John: The good for business podcast with myself and Tony, my partner in business

labs. You can hear me ranting about who knows whatever each week right

here on ITunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Igor: Wow. Nice. Cool. Guys, go check out the show, get Everything’s Integrity on

Amazon and visit John’s blog at boldstatementmarketing.com. That’s a wrap.

John, thank you so much.

John: Thank you. Igor. It was a pleasure to be here.

Narrator: Thanks for tuning into List Building Lifestyle show. If you’re digging what

you’re hearing, your next step is to go to ITunes and in the search bar type

List Building Lifestyle. You’ll see Igor’s face smiling at you. Go ahead and click

on that, subscribe to the show. If you’re feeling really generous and you want

to help us out, then give us your rating and review to help other smart people

like you find the show. Thanks for tuning in and we will see you on the next

one. [42:00]

Who Is Igor Kheifets

Igor Kheifets is the 3rd highest-earning super-affiliate in the internet marketing niche.

Igor’s 2-step system has helped him consistently rank as the highest-earning and the highest-converting (measured in commissions earned per click) for industry’s leading vendors including but not limited to Matt Bacak, John Crestani and Anthony Morrison.

Igor boiled down success in affiliate marketing to a set of predictable easy steps anyone can take to generate commissions.


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