What We Learned From 8,000 Email Split Tests With Matt Bacak

Would you like to know half a dozen instant fixes you can apply to your emails to double your clicks?

Then you’re going to love this episode where I grill the Godfather of email marketing – Matt Bacak – on what he learned about squeezing more clicks that convert from his email lists after conducting over 8,000 email split tests!

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Igor: Hi, my name is Igor Kheifets and this is the List Building Lifestyle, the only podcast
which delivers cutting edge conversion strategies from the online trenches straight to
your earbuds. Download the transcript of today’s episode and all future episodes at
listbuilidnglifestylesshow.com. I also invite you to grab a free copy of “The Wealthy
List Builder’s Survival Guide” at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com/survival and now
once again it’s time to claim your List Building Lifestyle.

Welcome back to another edition of the List Building Lifestyle with your host,
Igor Kheifets. My next guest is a legend. Mike Litman, the number one
international best-selling author of Conversations With millionaires says that, my
guest is without a doubt the most powerful promoter he ever worked with. Mark
Joyner, the founder of Simpleology and the author of Integration Marketing, says
that my guest is one of the smartest marketers alive.

Bill Glazer, number one best-selling author of Outrageous Advertising and Dan
Kennedy's partner in Glazer Kennedy Inner Circle, says that you really need to
call him "Doctor," because he has a PhD in affiliate marketing, and JV marketing,
and email marketing. Russell Brunson, the co-founder of Click Funnels and the CEO
of Dotcom Secrets, says that there's only one marketer that, "I have personally
hired to consult me and I paid him $1,000 for one hour of his time. It made me
$250,000 that year."

My guest has been building email lists since the year '99, and has ever since made
over $100 million with email. He sent over 1 billion emails out, when, of course,
when I say 1 billion emails I mean, the 1 billion marketing emails, and right now
he started the project called EPC Institute where he's teaching people how to use
email marketing their business to capitalize on ginormous profit opportunities, no
matter the niche or the type of business they're in. My guest today, is none other
than Matt Bacak, the Living Legend of Human Marketing. Matt, thank you and welcome
to the List Building Lifestyle.

Matt Bacak: Dude, thank you very much, man. It's really an honor to be here. And I
looked at all your guests and I'm like, man this is awesome. I really am grateful
to be here.

Igor Kheifets: We work hard to get the best guests, and that's why I'm really
happy to get you on the show as well. And make no bones about it, once the episode
goes live, you're going right there on the right-hand side of our website on the
widget that says, "Featured guests," right along the Kiyosakis and the Perry
Marshalls, and the billionaires that we host on the show. So Matt, The reason I
invited you on the List Building Lifestyle is very simple.

I'm an email marketer, as you know, and you're an email marketer. And you've been
making money with email since before I knew what Internet was, since before I had
my first computer, actually. So obviously, the world is rapidly changing. The
media changes, the technology changes, everything is really moving really, really
fast. And a lot of people that kind of listen to our show and get into our world,
and when we tell them that email marketing is the way to go, they tell us things
like, "Email marketing doesn't work. Facebook's taken over the world, you better
use Twitter and Snapchat to make money." So what is your take on that? What is
your take on email versus all the other ways of making money?

Matt Bacak: Well, first of all, I mean, let's kind of check ourselves a little bit
at the door here. I mean, the reason I say that is because, right now, email is
going to be used by three billion people by 2020. So that's almost half the
world's population. I mean, so there's a bonus smart opportunity there, but we're
talking about from a money perspective, but here's the thing, most people, I've
been running businesses, gosh, for a long time, even before then.

And the fundamentals are really important. I know that technology changes, media
changes, but the cool thing is, every year, everybody tells me the same thing you
just said. They tell me, "Hey, email marketing is dead." The next year, it's,
"Email marketing's alive," the next year, "Email marketing is dead," and then it's
next year, "It's alive." But the great thing is, email makes money. And for every
dollar that I spent on email marketing, I always can expect about average return
about $38.

Because the great thing is, it drives customer acquisition, it drives retention.
And in fact, everybody thinks Facebook, Facebook, Facebook, Facebook. But people
go to Facebook to like stuff, people get emails to buy stuff, and from there, and
people are more likely to interact, and they already interact with you, to sign up
for your list on email. I mean, even they're twice as likely. Even forced to
research says the same thing.

People are twice as likely to sign up for your email list than they already
interact with you on Facebook. And then, you were just talking about social media
and search. That shouldn't be ignored. But here's the thing, and folks this is,
you combine those two tactics right there, just the search and social media, you
apply those two tactics, and email has higher conversion rates than both of them
combined. So, whoever is filling your head with that crap, like listen to Igor, he
knows what he's talking about.

Because right now what's happening in the marketplace, is customers are relying on
emails more to learn about businesses, as they shop so they can get informed to
make better decisions. It's crazy. And also here's the thing too, and this is one
is a kind of a writer downer for some people, because personalized emails receive
transaction rates that are six times higher than others out there. So I mean, it's
insane. In fact, here's something that if you guys aren't like, dead set on even
doing email, listen to this. People who purchase through email spend 138% more
than those who don't receive email offer. So you'd be stupid not to, quite
honestly. I mean, your bank account will hate you, at the end of the day.

Igor Kheifets: Absolutely, and I'm looking at the study by Mail Munch right now,
and it ranks all the possible traffic source that goes from paid search, to free
search, to direct hits, referrals, social media, such as, Facebook, Twitter, and
so on, and so forth. And Facebook, and so in other social media outlets is
actually third from the bottom. Email is third from the top. And email does not
lead on the amount of conversions. Actually, the leader for the amount of
conversions is organic search. But email is leading for the profit per sale. And
right now, it stands about one and-- half times more than search, and get this, 20
times more than social media.

Matt Bacak: Oh, yeah. Totally believe it.

Igor Kheifets: Incredible. And yeah, unless you're using email marketing your
business, you wouldn't be able to see it for yourself. But for me, as well, you
know what really resonated with me when you said people who go on social media
like and comment, people who get emails they buy And they've done another study,
not Mail Munch, someone else done the study, I downloaded a PDF for about a year
ago, what they've actually tested two types of audiences. They surveyed the
audience and they asked, "What do you do first thing in the morning? Do you check
your email, or do check your Facebook?"

And so, the people who check their Facebook first thing the morning, they believe
that they patronize the business, they believe that they contribute to a business
by basically liking the stuff that that business publishes on their fan page. And
people who check their emails first thing the morning, they believe that to
patronize the business, you actually need to buy something from the business,
which is the kind of customer I would appreciate most.

Matt Bacak: Absolutely.

Igor Kheifets: So my next question, Matt, is this. So, you sent out over a billion
emails since '99. That's, that's a lot. I mean, even for me, that that's a bit
over the top, a billion emails. I never counted how many emails I sent out, but
that's impressive. So you've probably seen the game change a little bit. And, of
course, you know, we can't be ignoring the fact that the emailing game changed in
the way the emails are delivered, how the ESPs are changing the rules all the
time. So can you walk us through some of the better practices that we need to be
aware of today in order to achieve better delivery rates and kind of increase our
chances of hitting the inbox?

Matt Bacak: Well, I mean, that's a great question. But I do want to say this, it's
interesting, because when I first started, you know, I started emailing, sending
out broadcasts, a lot of emails back in '99, things were a lot different. There's
been a lot of changes. However, the reason I bring that up is, it's done a lot of
changes. But I'm starting to notice, it's a little more easier than it used to be,
about five years ago. So I'm seeing another trend coming back more towards the
thing. But here's one thing, I do a lot of split testing. I've done over, I think
8,000 email split tests around. Here's some things that I've discovered. One, and
this is, I wouldn't call it best practices, it's my best practices based upon my
thing, because it will probably, some of the things I might say might go against
what you're whoever you're mailing from, will say.

But, one thing that I love doing, and one thing you can do to in order to increase
your overrides getting all through there is the fact that you gotta pay attention
to where you're at, this will actually increase your problems. So if you guys got
a list and stuff like that, you might want to take in consideration to where
you're sending it from, like, what's the from name, what's the email address that
you're sending from. Just that alone, can really change a lot of things for you,
because there's some customers you have that are like, "Man, I really want this,"
and they might put you in a box, and they'll never get back to it.

So my point being is, so let's say, like, my name is Matt Bacak. And so, I might
have Matt [email protected], you know, cow phone, or whatever, that's an old domain.
But, you know, so I might have that, but I also might be able to change it up,
like Matt staff, like my wife, you know, if I'm mailing out and, you know, I
signed it off my wife and I where you can have it from the corporation. So I can
actually send one out from the corporation. So, you know, whenever you're writing,
what I found is, if you can just change up that alone, that's going to get more
that'll get more opens, they'll get more people to pay attention to your emails.
And that'll make things happen. So if you're running a bricks and works company,
you might want to you can someone from your company, and you can actually send one
from, like, the president of the company that makes sense. That alone was really
like a, you know, a little trick that really works really well for people now, you
know, so, I mean, you know, thinking of, like, tons of, and things like, nothing's
really changed. Now, here's one thing that I think is really important, you know,
we've done a lot of different tests for me, I will tell you, for me, I like to
send, not talking long long long long long they got to scroll thousand times. I
like to keep them little shorter, if he had the score, like, I don't want you to
scroll more than twice a lot of times. So it'd be like, you know, I don't have it
more than twice, because for me that the whole purpose is to train them to get
them to go to a place.

If I'm training them, I want them to go to my blog, if they want to go learn
something, let's just say where I want them to go to a page to go by.So whenever
I'm doing something like that, it's really important I think, for a lot of people
do not realize this is just a PS alone. Like, it sounds really simple and so
stupid. But just the PS alone, especially if and here's the one thing if you guys
want to get rid of your own subscribes, and big mistake I see a lot of people
doing today, there's a new movement, where a lot of start with their pictures by
their signature file, if you put your picture down by your signature file, what
you're gonna discover is that people's eyes are going to be drawn straight to that
picture.

The next thing, the next opportunity for them to have to do anything is going to
be click your unsubscribe link. If you do, you know, if you do put a picture down
there, or your company, your logo is people's eyes are drawn to that, if you do
that at a PS and in that PS add a button for people to click so that it's not the
next thing for them to do is, you know, you know, unsubscribe from your list,
because you'll notice, you'll get more you'll get more people click, you give all
people going to your page, you know, that are reading it.

That's one thing that I just want to kind of throw out there to see a lot of
people doing it right now. And it scares me, because people don't understand that,
you know, people are drawn to pictures. And so more people are putting pictures in
their emails, the more it's causing, you know, the change in readership. Because
if you put your picture on, if, let's say you had a header and you put your
picture on the right hand side, then the eyes are going to flow to the right hand
side is going to change the eye movement from right to left instead of left to
right. So, you know, in an email, and so those are little things or big things are
little things that can really, you know, help you in considering with, with your
emails itself.

But I will tell you, so, let me give you guys something that just helps me that's
like frickin' hopefully this is, you know, this is a writer downer. Okay, so
here's something I know from my test. Okay, so I called him earring and if your
subject club so if my subject line, whatever the subject line is, and let's say I
have a straight out link, what I'm talking about is www dot my domain dot com. And
then whenever I'm sending the somebody, I might put, you know, www dot my domain
dot com forward slash, you know, click here, let's just say. If the subject line
is I'm just gonna, I mean, I'm using these just make it easier on me is by this,
right, so I'm just going to use it. So by this is the subject line, if I near
whatever it says in the subject line in the link. So the link, you ultimately
would be by this com.

If the semicolon matches there, because the thing that got him open will be the
thing that gets them to click. So the thing that open so now if I don't do it, and
I do what's called a redirect so it'd be like WWE my domain dot com forward slash
buy this, I'm going to see an increase in the amount of clicks. But if I want to
create an increased amount of open if I take the subject line, and here's the
thing that's happening today is you know me you think about this, when you open up
your email and you're going your email account, you'll typically you're going to
see the from name, you're going to break, say, the email, you're going to see the
subject line.

And a lot of times, you'll see like the first few lines or the first line of the
email if the first line in the email matches nears what it has in the subject
line, you're gonna I mean, the subject line, it's, it's somewhere it doesn't have
to be the same, you know, let's say I said, I think I used buy this. So if it's
like, I just want to let you you know, know that you should buy this, like, let's
say that was the first line, right, and it matched the subject line, then you're
going to find you're going to get a heck a lot more opens and more clicks. And
then if you are more clicks with the link, but more click More opens with paying
attention.

That first line is that first line matching the thing that got him to open it up,
it's a no brainer is gonna pull them in, and it's going to get them to go down.
They're going to see it in there. And they mean the same exact thing. So thinking
about that it's mirroring I call it mirroring you just near whatever the second if
you mere the subject line throughout in the copy with special with the link
especially with that opening sentence. Boom, you're gonna find your and get more
open to more clicks.

Igor Kheifets: Wow. Sounds like your split test everything.I mean, I don't know
anyone. split test ...

Matt Bacak: I split test every freakin element theory. I do find gratitude and
variations every single day. I'm actually feeling right now, because we had a
holiday yesterday. So I didn't do my split test. So I'm like, kind of shaking
because I do one everyday

Igor Kheifets: You're a split test junkie.

Matt Bacak: I do. I am a split test fanatic. And the reason is, because one slight
variation is going to change everything for me. And I always split test radical.
So and then the reason I split test radicals, I split test radically different
variations for a certain reason. And the reason is, because radicals create rapid
results. If I created slightly different variations, using the example let's just
say I'm just split testing headlines. I mean, sometimes there's a headline saying
the same thing. But let's just say, you know, split testing the subject line by
this and have another one. And I'm just making some radically different, you know,
things to you. But like, let's just say I split tested, hey, and then by this and
I split tested, dude, which are common things that somebody I know that uses, and
then I split test, this is really good, you know, so I got those four radically
different subject lines, and I'll give myself that one, you know, be like, you
know, XYZ is live.

I've got five radically different subject lines, I'm going to get radically
different results in each subject line that I send out, is going to also dictate
the amount of clicks, it's amazing, you know, I might get more opens with the,
Hey, I'll get more opens based on that example I just gave you all get tons more
opens with the with the hey and dude, but I'm not going to get intent and what I
want to, you know, it's whatever the intention I want to create from the subject
line in the tent would be on the one is like by this, which is the one I use it
in, if the intention when they open it up, they know, hey, it's something for them
to buy, I'm gonna have more likelihood of, you know, more people reading the
email, and hey, and dude, because it's like a, my intention is to get their
attention. But if my intention is to get them to buy this, then buy this is
probably going to be the thing that's going to create more clicks, you know, I,
you know, I haven't done this exact, I mean, I've done a similar test this so I
don't know, you know, exactly, but I split test radicals. Because, you know, I
never know it just because something.

And to me, I do not care when it comes to my split test, I'm paying attention to
what is the thing is going to create the action and the action, I want us to get
them to click go to a page because the number one most important credit, you know,
metric when it comes to email marketing, to me is a PC earnings per click. So,
especially if I'm sending out something for people to buy, you know, it could be
hurt if I'm sending out to have people read, then I want to go with the hey in the
dude get more people to buy, I want that intent to buy want more people to be able
to go buy. So I'm always paying attention to, you know, I'm testing elements from
in a way I test elements ,all elements, whether it's with often pages, whether
it's with sales pitches, or whether it's emails, always starting to notice me do
at the beginning of our conversation, I started with the first thing they're going
to see, which is the email address. And then I started with the next thing with
you actually really think about what I just did is, then I not and then the next
thing I brought up was the subject line. And then the next thing I brought up was
the actual email itself.

Then the next thing I brought, it was actually the Well actually, I brought a
blink and then I brought email, but I usually go in the same direction that the
eyeballs move where the tracker that the person the recipients going to pay
attention, and that's what I care about the most. Because that's what's going to
happen. Like, what good is it to focus on anything, you know, the email if I
can't, you know, I mean, it's great to focus on. But my point is, I always want to
focus and always focus on the direction that the person in what they're going to
go through.

Igor Kheifets: Wow, do document your split tests.

Matt Bacak: Oh, gosh, I have, you should see my books. Yes, I document everything.
I will tell you, when I first started, I didn't. And that was the dumbest thing.
But then I got really smart. And I went and I hired somebody to actually pull the
data because everyone offices do it was like more of the marketing side of things.
So I just you know, I found somebody have a virtual assistant and literally goes
into my data was all my data is me Excel spreadsheets every single day. And in
fact, when I get those Excel spreadsheets eight, my Excel spreadsheets are based
upon a what I call, I think it's the most important equation when it comes to
email marketing. And in the equation is just share with you guys the equation is
asked plus c plus E equals money. And what that stands for the S stands for
subscribers. The C stands for clicks, and the E stands for a EPC. Because I am
tracking that. And that's a time managing things. So when she pulled so my Excel
spreadsheet comes in, I'm going to get she one column is going to be you know how
many subscribers I had that moment, which is the s the next call is going to be
how many clips at the gut next calls me What's my EPC.

The next column is going to or the next column is going to be actually the the
actual subject client email used in order to create that, that result. I have all
of those documented for since I think probably 2009. So when I finally woke up to
realize what am I doing, I need this data. So what that allows me to do is make
better decisions on what to use and what the test against because then in here's
what out because now it's to the point where I'll test my best against my best and
get to my even better, right? And then or if I'm going to reuse something that
worked really well, I might read crafted a little bit. And if I do read crafted a
little bit, I'm just going to slightly retract it. But what I'm going to do at
that moment because I found my winner and already have my data and I'll go in and
at that moment. If I'm split testing, like the subject line. And let's say buy
this was it then I'm going to split test. And for me I get down to Okay, so do I
put capital? So is it bought capital by capital on the buy and capital on the
this? Is it lowercase? I mean, just those little things. Do I add an exclamation
point.

What little element is going to create more revenue for me what little elements
can create more clicks for me? So you know, and and sometimes it is so radically
different. Sometimes the slight variations create slight variations and results.
But sometimes it really does change anything, you know, if I capitalize the whole
thing, even, you know, all of it, is that gonna work, you know, so I'm not taking
that one winner. And then I'm making slight variations. But it's interesting
because I'll start seeing, you know, there, they'll start, I'll start seeing
trends in the emails. And then I'll come back and I'll use that data to make my
decisions on my next thing I'm going out with so like I said, I do split test a
lot, probably more than anybody that I know in the marketplace. Just because, you
know, I just seen that just one slight change can change everything. And it'll
increase I mean, if I can double my clicks, I double the amount of money I make.

If I can double, you know, I mean, to doing things like that. Now, here's the
interesting thing. I know, it's probably going in some people's head because
there's a huge myth out there. And is the fact that all comes down to one thing
is, is the actual open, you know, like, why is that like the formula gave you guys
was s plus c plus e equals the money. Why is there no s plus O? Why is there no
such thing? Why right, Matt writing books on Oprah. Here's one thing that has
changed. So, so at the beginning, you ask, like, Hey, what are the changes. But
here's a big change, I think is very important, especially when it comes to
metrics, you know, email marketing metrics. And that one thing is open rates,
things have changed now that we literally have gone in, and we started looking at,
you know, the open rates, I mean, what we're looking at, we're looking at the
stats and stuff like that open rates. And this is something that people don't put
the back of their heads. My test prove that opens cannot always be verified. But
clicks can be verified. And that's why in mind, I'm always focusing on that, you
know, only open rates are not part of my equation for many reasons.

But here's the thing. And if you guys think about this, and here's the change. So
in order to track an open rate, the the person receiving the email must allow HTML
to be displayed. I don't know if you guys ever been there, you open up your email,
and it says, click here to display, you know, this message, you know, where to
view the investors because there's, there's things in there, well, many email
clients do not automatically load images, you know, in the message in so, you
know, so what happens is, you have to choose to display them and download them and
display them. And what that creates is that creates it doesn't show open rates
properly.

We can track clicks, like we could track the clicks, we can't track open rates
properly. And what now with even mobile phones, what's caught what's happening is
because your carrier's the mobile phone carriers want to, you know, save the data
usage, what they're doing is, and also protect you from, you know, harmful HTML,
but what they're doing is, they're, they're not pulling that data in so much. So
we're not getting true tracking and, you know, tracking on those things. So I
don't really pay attention to only time I do so, you know, and people like, well,
if they don't open it, they can't, you know, this argument Good, well, they don't
open it, well, then they can't click Well, you know, you're not seeing loop and
because sometimes, because it's not being tracked properly. And that's a big
change in the market, especially now, with mobile phones, like I said, because
they're not trying to save you, they're hiding the, the, the HTML a little bit
sometimes to save you on the data so that you're not displaying as much that would
be a big change.

But the other side of the big thing to uh, to is opens like I was talking about
with intent, like buy this and hey, you know, opens do not always opens will
actually do not equal, you know, clicks at all. It's, it's funny, some of my
lowest open rate subject lines, the Oh, the lowest up right subject lines that I
have sometimes my biggest winners, you know, because I'm looking at my click that,
you know, my, I'm looking at them clicks and paying attention. Which ones bringing
the most money for me, and it's not, I will tell you nine times I hate giving
people blanket statements like, like this, I'm about to say, but nine times out of
10, my lowest lower open rates are going to beat my highest open rates for clicks
and revenue, then, you know, anything all my split test pilot, and I learned, you
know, just totally don't argue with data. So, you know ...

Igor Kheifets: Numbers don't lie.

Matt Bacak: Numbers don't lie at all.

Igor Kheifets: A lot of times, I'd be like, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, test the
sound it's definitely gonna work. It's I'm is, this is true winner. I don't even
need to test it told me that I know it's gonna win. And then it just bombs. And
then other times, I'm like, sitting there. I'm doubting I'm biting my nails. And
all of a sudden they got a great winner. So yeah, only go by the numbers. Because
if you go by the hunch, most likely, you'll just end up you know, wasting time and
money. Man you shared so much. I couldn't even be taking notes fast enough. And I
got so many questions to keep asking you. But we're actually nearly out of time.
So let me just ask you one final note. Apologize. Please. Let me just ask you one
more question. So you mentioned that you go from email to from name to subject
line to first line to email body to link and obviously, you know, you're very
aggressive when it comes to split test and with emails, that's I mean, that's
awesome. No one I know, including myself is that aggressive. I thought I was like
strategic compared to you I'm just - I don't know what I'm doing. So my question
to you is, though, like the split tests you're conducting on your emails, do you
ever transfer the results of those tests on to sales pages via sales?

Matt Bacak: oh my gosh, you nailed it. So yes. Oh, my gosh, I will tell you so
it's funny because one of the biggest things that I haven't tested by tested last
month, last couple months once I figured, you know what, you know, one of the
things I'm gonna test is actually my foreman, like I wanted to create, like, I
will call it I tell myself, I want to create the ultimate format for email
marketing, right? You know, like, because I just wanted be adding my picture.
That's how I found out the longest upset so here, here. Yes, I always so my best
subject lines, and that's why I use that report, I pulled it up I go, which
subject line made me the most money boom, you know, and I will use that as my
headline.

I will use that as my sub headlines. I'll use that as my Facebook post, I'll use
that, like, I use it all over the place. I mean, I get my money's worth, I put it
on LinkedIn, you know, like, whenever I'm posting about it. But here's the other
thing this where I was getting at why I got really, really excited. Because, you
know, it dawned on me, I do that, but then what didn't dawn on me until actually,
somebody in one of my groups said to me, you know, man, have you ever tested this
format that you've been testing and put it on a webpage? Oh, my gosh, I was like,
You know what, you're right. Like, I'm sending them to a page it doesn't look like
the page like I've done all these books.

I mean, I'm talking about button colors down to the the exact fonts I mean, I
mean, and I was like, hold on, let me so I put an exact replica of my email like I
literally seen font style same button colors you know, which is not what people
would even think they are and you know, but all these different things on here and
I'm like it you know, and I put it was look like my email and he went up my it was
for a webinar I was doing it originally started off on a webinar my webinar went
to 89% conversion rate. I was like, What the crap, like why did I not think about
like, just that element, but usually I used certain elements a lot of the emails
from an email copy, I use the you know, but I never thought about formatting until
I did that now I'm like, yeah, there it is.

It's amazing because it's so much faster to test an email and so I can take that
and bring it over to you know, the is it online and it works like freaking Math.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And you know, we've been split
testing some things as well and things like moving your button from being blue to
be an orange or Amazon style sort of yellowish that increases conversions like the
craziest things you wouldn't even consider so when you say you split this radicals
I think that's the biggest thing about split testing that in a week we can come
away with from from this episode is that of course a gotta split test in and of
itself this is a big thing but also split this radicals and split test things that
you don't you wouldn't even that expect to make a difference this is -

Matt Bacak: I know we don't have much time but let me say this because since
you're talking about split testing, I feel really obligated to say this to you
guys. When I say split test like first of all split like when I split test goes
through my mind I want to transfer this to your heads is this I want to create
here's what I think will work and here's what and I'll even go like let me be
crazy this is what I don't think will work and I will literally test that way when
I talk about radicals. When I talk about radicals I'm also talking about pretty as
hell and ugly as hell like things I want to show anybody but anyway I just want to
tell you like when I talk about radicals I'm talking about radically different
things .like a cup and a frickin bat like that's radical. Igor Kheifets: Yeah
absolutely and this is this something I learned my copywriting days when you know
my copywriting mentor would force me to write copy and then he'd be like okay now
you know write 10 new headlines and I would write 10 new headlines but then he
would come back to me he's like dude you're just changing one board in the
headline you're not really split testing anything here like yeah but this headline
kind of works and I don't want to go away no he's like test completely different
angles, completely different directions as the only way to know what radically
works well because if you change the word easy to word simple that's not going to
do much for you, but if you change the whole angle of the promotion that may
result in a big breakthrough and that's how I started applying it to my emails in
my frames as well when they do any frames for affiliate products or anything like
that I can have the exact same product but I'll build three different angles three
different frames for it and one frame may get more clicks throughs but the other
one will be the one making more money so that's the one that goes into my follow
up sequence into an evergreen sequence right that just you know i know I'm going
to make the most money without frame.

Matt Bacak: That's awesome.

Igor Kheifets: So Matt obviously your wealth of knowledge when it comes to emails
when it comes to split test when it comes to getting more clicks more sales higher
EPC's. It's obvious that we cannot share everything in the one 30 minute interview
so where can we go to learn more about what you do and perhaps even steal some of
your secrets.

Matt Bacak: Yeah, well if you want to steal my secrets then you gotta go to
Facebook and join my Facebook it's called Make peace x list building club there's
a lot of stuff that I do share in there like I do try to do you know Facebook
Lives they brought it bring on guests kinda like what you're doing here just bring
on guests and I pick their brain and get some good stuff out of them but I also
share my stuff too so actually my formats actually in there and actually I think I
talked about split testing on one of the videos too so you can find those in there
that would probably be one of the probably the best places for anybody to go kind
of inside my mind and get around you know my stuff.

Igor Kheifets: All right yeah actually logging in right now turns out I'm a member
but then never visited the group right so I joined you got 18,000 people here
almost 18,000 now you got a bunch of good stuff here you got Swype files you got
how to place links in your emails, how not to place links in your emails. Alright,
cool. Well guys, go to Facebook dot com forward slash groups forward slash list
building club. That's where you'll find mats secret List building society. And you
know, he's sharing all these secrets for free, which is insane. But man I also
know you're working on something big right now. Something that is going to really
changed the direction that the list building industry is going in right now. So
perhaps you want to share a little bit more about that.

Matt Bacak: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I created the EPC in my life. And actually
all started when I say 1999, just so you guys know I'm 40. it's been half my life
I've been email Mark that's crazy to think. So for over 20 years, I've been email
marketing and so literally, it's half my life. And so what I did is I don't know
if you guys ever heard of, or any Glaser or, you know, digital marketer. But I
brought on one of their one of the guys that build their platform for them. I
actually brought him in as a partner. And we created what's called the PC
Institute, we're really focusing on, you know, creating an environment where
people can learn more about, you know, email marketing, and I've literally, you
know, not just, you know, you know, just to be able to marketing, but I was sick
and tired of people not taking action, oh, sick and tired of people not getting
results. And I wanted to make a difference, it really, really make a difference.

Like, we talked about the list building club, you know, ever half a million
customers that bought, you know, working stuff for me, I've been in touch with him
over the years. So I know what's going on, people are going out there and buying
stuff in the market, they're not getting results. And at this point in my career,
it's not okay, so what we did is I hunker down and partner with him, you know, one
of the top, you know, data driven platform, you know, results driven platform guys
in the world. And we created, you know, program and the next generation program
product designers and just really created a place where people could come and just
go and get it. Like right now, I think the marketplace is really serving everybody
scrambled eggs when you really need an omelet so what we did is we created an
omelet. It is really what it is and it's basically put my Lifetime's work
together.

And I brought into not one but two curriculum design experts that actually they
really figured out how the brain works and we created a structure we structure the
not so it's not just great information but structured in a way that your brain can
absorb it and can comprehend it and then you know the go and take action on it.
And so we you know, I'm just I'm just excited like I don't have you guys here like
we built in accountability we done all this stuff so we've we've created this
environment where people go to learn to get better and just like these ladies are
too and they just such - it's like I feel like I've been dissected the last six
months like I'm on the operation table like Matt we need to know more about this
we need more about this and then they break it down and put it in a way that I
mean I'm just I just tell you this you know it's it's amazing and I even my
partner when he wrote me he said Matt How do you feel when it's you know after I
finished the you know getting the first thing done and you know how he was how do
you feel I said this sounds weird as I said so this sounds weird but I had tears I
know after I completed the first lesson the moment I finally realized this my
life's work.

It's something that I put pride in and as you can tell and we've crew we're
creating right now there's needed you know people as the market specialist from
the PCs do we got more stuff coming I'm just excited we just got the first course
done and we've got a lot more plan for future.

Igor Kheifets: Wow sounds like you got a lot going on I'm definitely going to be
watching you in that space and definitely going to be watching the EPC Institute
so guys you want to check out the EPC Institute it's literally up right now. And
there's going to be growing from here on out now go to EPC Institute dot com and
don't forget to join mats Facebook group on Facebook dot com forward slash groups
forward slash list building club Matt I gotta be honest, I don't like Facebook. I
don't go on Facebook. It's very distracting annoying and it really makes me
miserable looking at all the nice photos that people post about how amazing the
life is.

And then I kind of compare that to my life and how much it sucks and you know
(laughs)

Matt Bacak: I mean I'm gonna tell you let me fix that for you because you should
go in there look at your ads of course but uh.You know the other thing is, I mean
I use a plugin so all that stuff vanishes I don't see any of that stuff I just
only pay attention to my groups and you know I don't pay attention anybody else's
stuff except for my own so if somebody tags me and something I'll pay attention to
but other than that I you know I don't know if you've got you know I'm just going
to tell you like really the best thing to ever do is you know down like there's a
thing where you just block all that out you know the plugin so I'm just telling
anybody like it literally will save so much time for you there's a plugin if you
just go in and find it and I use that all the time that's what I use I don't get
caught up in crap.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah absolutely that's called the Facebook feed killer and I have
it installed what they don't like is still I get sucked up into the drama there's
post or this or that and you know sometimes I find myself procrastinating and
somehow end up on Facebook. No matter how I look at it besides maybe chatting with
some Joint Venture Partners just a really bad use of my time but I will be
checking in with your group now so there's another reason for me one positive
reason for you to go on Facebook besides your adventures.

Guys that's once again that's EPC Institute dot com and Facebook dot com forward
slash groups forward slash list building club go ahead get on the club there's a
bunch of free stuff there Matt split tests know how tutorials. I see there's an
interview with Jon Benson who was one of the best living copywriters today
considered widely considered to be one of the best so get on it. Tons of good
stuff on it Matt Thank you so very much for joining the already impressive list of
superstar guests for the List building lifestyle show I appreciate it and I truly
enjoyed interviewing you today you've shared a bunch of good material I'll have to
be listened to the recording and steal some of your some of your split testing
secrets and I really hope that we're going to host you on the show again in the
near future when EPC Institute starts rolling out these these courses in a big
project so thank you again and until next time we chat. Have a good one.

Thank you for listening to The List Building Lifestyle. Make sure to subscribe on
iTunes or Google Play to never miss an episode, because who knows? Just one
conversion tactic we share on the show might double your list and double your
business. Download the transcript of today's episode and all future episodes at
listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. And don't forget to claim your complimentary copy
of The Wealthy List Builders Survival Guide at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com/survival .
This is Igor Kheifets, and until next time we talk, have a good one.

Who Is Igor Kheifets

Igor Kheifets is the founder and CEO of Igor Solo Ads, world’s largest Solo Ads agency. He’s the guy the gurus call when they need high quality business opportunity leads that convert.

Igor’s passionate about sharing up-to-date traffic & conversion strategies that work with beginners who want to make six figures while traveling the world full time.

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