Frame Control Affiliate Marketing With Kameron George

Recently I’ve had an opportunity to sit across the virtual table from one of the highest paid super-affiliates the internet marketing space has ever seen and ask them – what’s the #1 thing you do responsible for making you 7 figure affiliate cmmissions?

He spent the next 40 minutes explaining to me the most important thing that made him a super-affiliate.


Igor: Hi, my name is Igor Kheifets and this is the List Building Lifestyle, the only podcast
which delivers cutting edge conversion strategies from the online trenches straight to
your earbuds. Download the transcript of today’s episode and all future episodes at I also invite you to grab a free copy of “The Wealthy
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once again it’s time to claim your List Building Lifestyle.

Hey, it's Igor, real quick before we dive into today's episode, I just wanted to
give you a quick backstory to what happened today. I'm chatting with Kameron
George. Kameron is one of the, I would call them, incognito affiliate marketers
who are responsible for making millions upon millions, upon millions of dollars
with internet marketing funnels.

He's primarily done work in the internet network marketing, and internet affiliate
marketing spaces, and you wouldn't believe the amount of money this guy's websites
are making as well as the amount of lives he touched and changed. In fact, some of
the bigger names in the industry, their success can be tied back to Kameron

Now, what you need to remember, when you listen to this interview, is first and
foremost this is gonna be a bit more advanced of an interview than I usually do
because we're gonna get into some really complicated terms such as 'user
experience,' such as 'framing,' and 'scaling.' These are really big concepts that
can revolutionize anyone's business, and if right now you're struggling to get
your first sale up and going, I highly recommend you take lots of notes.

So, if you're used to listening to my podcasts while you're driving or while
you're working out, you may want to listen to this one with a pen and a pad in
hand. In addition, I also wanna warn you that the audio quality on this one is not
great. We actually had the call break up six times throughout the recording. I had
to cut out a bunch of different segments, but eventually we were able to get a
good 40 minutes of content for you down.

So, make sure you take lots of notes. Make sure you listen to every word that this
guy's saying because he's single handedly created more success stories than most
gurus out there collectively ever will. So, let me introduce you to Kameron

Welcome back to another addition of the List Building Lifestyle, with your host
Igor Kheifets. I've got Kameron George sitting down with me today. We're chatting
about affiliate internet marketing. Kameron is one of those names you don't really
hear online, but he's responsible for ridiculous amounts of money made online, and
for ridiculous amounts of success stories. In fact, it's been a while since
Kameron produced a campaign that generated less than $200,000 in profit, and
specifically in the last 12 months alone, two of his companies produced a
collective 50 million dollars in sale all through affiliate internet marketing,
all through online lead generation.

Kameron, thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me today.

Kameron George: Oh, it's my pleasure Igor. I've been listening to your podcast for
a while, and I love what you're doing here.

Igor Kheifets: Thank you, I really appreciate it. It really means a lot coming
from you because even though most people listening to my podcast do not know this,
you've been one of the, I guess, catalysts for this industry. Because you've
created many success stories. Many of the people we know to appreciate today as
gurus and multi-multi-millionaires in online marketing space, that go on to create
educational companies and affiliate marketing companies, their success can be
tracked back to you.

You seem to know something that most people don't. And this is my intent, my ideal
goal, my ideal outcome for this call, is to pick your brain and find out what is
the fundamental strategy that you applied to all your affiliate promotions that
allows you to create such tremendous results.

Kameron George: Well, I look forward to being able to share some of those ideas
with you. I think the main thing that you touched on there is that it's about
principles. A lot of people get really hung up on the strategy, the technique, and
they think of themselves as technicians. They're looking for the hot new Facebook
thing, or this little strategy over here that's here today gone tomorrow. The
reality of what I teach and what I practice is it comes down to principles. Things
that last the test of time, and are not just applicable today. They have been for
the last ten years, and they will be for the next 20 years or so.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, absolutely. People think it's a tactics business, but it's
really a principles business. We can actually track it back to direct response,
right? Many of the things that I know today to be true and use in my business can
be tracked all the way back to Gary Halbert, who used to operate strategically in
the direct marketing space.

Kameron George: Absolutely, and that's the stuff that really matters, and that's
really important. It's not about the latest software, the latest technique. I
mean, how we do a lot of our lead gen now, whether it's on Facebook, youtube ...
All that stuff's irrelevant. It really comes down to the principles. At the end of
the day, internet marketing, sales and marketing, can be tied back to two things:
traffic and conversion. And you can [inaudible 00:05:37] go deeper from there.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, absolutely, and you're talking to the traffic guy after all.
That's exactly what we're gonna be talking about today.

So before we started this interview, we chatted a little bit about user
experience, which I know is a term that originates from the software development
industry, the Silicon Valley.

Now I've been fortunate enough to come across a business partner who is well
versed in user experience, and he helped really improve the overall user
experience of people through solo ads, and we continuously improve it to this day,
but what I don't think most people recognize is how important user experience,
when it comes to the marketing process. Igor Kheifets: So if you could, please
help the list builders understand what user experience is, and exactly how it is
to be applied in our marketing.

Kameron George: To me, it doesn't matter what business you're in. You're real
product is your user experience. A lot of people, like you said, they tie this
back to ... For instance, if I was developing a software company, which I may or
may not have, everything from the registration page where somebody's logging in,
to them setting up their account, to every little piece of it, is so intentional.
It's so specific. It's so strategic. It's intended to make it intuitive. Meaning
that somebody would be able to follow along naturally. They're not lost, they're
not fumbling around.

I really believe that it's important that in the marketing space, when we're ...
It can be as simple as when we're running our very first affiliate campaign. We're
trying to make that hard leap from making our first dollar online to being able to
consistently make $10,000 per month online, is that you understand these same
principles. The fact that what you are really designing inside of marketing
funnel, is a user experience.

You need to be able to intentionally design, think through, and understand every
piece of your funnel, and how your visitors, how your traffic, are experiencing
it. From the moment that they see your ad, to who is seeing your ad. The moment
that they see your ad, what you're saying in your ad, your call to action.
Everything to really understanding, the level of understanding that someone is
going to have, before they watch your ad. The level of understanding you're going
to take them to by the moment they have finished watching your ad. All the way to
the next step that you're going to take.

You really wanna start thinking and chunking down every little step and piece of
your experience. This can be taken into an exponentially deep and complex
conversation, into like, what are the leads that you're taking in today?
Experiencing two years from now? It's obviously not necessary, but really just
understanding the experience that you are designing for your traffic and your
audience to experience of you, of your brands, of the products and services that
you're promoting. Because at the end of the day, your real product, the real
service that you are bringing to the marketplace is your user experience.

Igor Kheifets: Now this is a very, I would say, challenging idea for most people
listening because a lot of people in our industry still don't get the idea that a
product doesn't even have to be physical. Many of them are still stuck in the
frame that products have to be physical. They still learn to appreciate the fact
that their products can be digital, but now what you're saying is, you're saying
our product is not the actual thing we give them, but how we give it to them. And
how we engineer the way they consume it. Is that what you're trying to say?

Kameron George: It absolutely is. I don't care if you have a widget that you are
sending to them. The moment that they are finding out about your widget, to that
widget landing in their ... the widget that they're getting in the mail, to your
follow up to the people that have received that widget. Every piece of that is the
user experience, and that is your real product.

The companies that are winning, and that are winning big, they know this and they
understand it.

I get that some people when they're just getting started out online and they're
kind of the solo partner. They just got their head around the fact that money can
be made online. They've just got their head around the fact that there is
affiliate programs out there. They just got their head around the fact that they
can license a product, or sign up as an affiliate, and be able to send traffic and
visitors to that particular product, and be compensated for it.

They've just got their head around that, and they're just starting to get their
head around some of these principles. That they can go to Facebook and that they
can place ads, that they can buy traffic, that they can come to a traffic vendor
like yourself and get a very targeted audience and get some endorsed traffic via a
solo ad. They're just starting to get their around some of these principles.
Everything seems so new, seems so fresh. And a lot of times people find themselves
bouncing around from idea, to idea, to idea, to idea, to idea, instead of getting
their head around these few core principles that I wanna share over the little bit
of time that we have here today. So they can really start to narrow in and focus
on what really matters and what's gonna produce results.

Igor Kheifets: When you talk about user experience, and the journey that we need
to take the customer through from the moment they discover about our widget, and
all the way to say two, three, five years from today, which is of course a very
deep look. And that just shows how sophisticated you are in marketing because you
think on that level. But let us take it a step back and think about the moment
when we struggled to make our first sale.

I work with a lot of people who have this problem, and what I find often enough is
that the reason the money's not exchanging hands and the prospect doesn't commit
is not because the offer is bad or the prospect doesn't have the money, or
anything like that, but simply because there's a gap between where the prospect is
mentally and where the prospect needs to be in order to appreciate the offer that
is being offered to them.

In other words, this gap is what prevents the sale from taking place. Now my
question to you is whether or not you've been noticing anything like that, and if
you have, what do you do to bridge the gap?

Kameron George: That's a great question. That is exactly what we're talking about
here, and that is the biggest mistake that people get is there talking to an
audience, like I see people going on their Facebook talking about why someone
needs to generate, how they can generate leads. And they're talking to an audience
that doesn't even know necessarily what a lead is, what the need would be for a
lead. They're literally talking to them at a different level. They don't have an
appreciation for the level of value or what that product is yet.

The thing that I would really like to empower your audience with today, is kind of
that sense of personal responsibility, that regardless of the products, offers, or
whatever they're promoting, that they're taking kind of a personal responsibility
on the framing to their audience.

Have you ever heard of the study that they did at MIT which talks about a

Igor Kheifets: No, but I think I know what a pre-frame is, but by all means,
please share with us.

Kameron George: This will all make sense in a moment, after I ... I'm gonna loop
back around in a long way to answer your question and make a point here.

So at MIT they basically had a speaker coming in. He was gonna give a lecture.
They had a write-up on the professor who was gonna give the lecture, and they
split up the handout that they were gonna give to the audience into two groups.
One of them, it was a full bio of the speaker, and on one of them they were
describing him as a cold teacher, as a cold individual. On the other they were
describing him as a warm. They were identical other than that one word.

They brought the gentleman in to give his lecture, give his speech. Did the whole
thing for obviously the same group, and had him leave and then they wanted to
survey the audience to see kind of what they're feedback was. Now with a 90
something percent accuracy, the feedback that they were getting from individuals
who had the bio that was describing him as a cold teacher, they were saying things
like, "I didn't feel like he was really interested in the info. I didn't feel like
he was really here, or that he really cared."

Meanwhile, all the people that had the bio that was describing him as a warm
teacher, were saying things like, "I felt like he really cared about this. He was
really focused. He was really attentive, that he was really passionate about the

Now, keep in mind, this was the exact same presenter. It was the exact same offer,
if you will, given to the exact same audience. The only difference was one word.
It was how they were pre-framed to look at this.

I really want people to be able to keep this in mind, especially when we're
thinking about the user experience. What frame of mind? How are people being
framed when they're being approached? When they're experiencing you, your funnel,
your offer for the first time? What are you doing to ensure that they're looking
at it in the right way? That they're looking at it in the right mindset? That they
have a very certain level of understanding before they're being approached or
they're going through your sales materials.

A lot of times people, when they're just getting their head around being an
affiliate, they're like, "Well, I got a link. I'm gonna send it there. That's
their problem."

And I really wanna empower your audience with taking on the personal
responsibility of understanding that, no, you and your user experience that you
are sending your audience through, is your responsibility regardless of the offer,
the affiliate programs, whatever it is that you're promoting. And that you, your
funnel, how you're promoting it, who you're promoting it to, your user experience
that you're designing is up to you. Only you can put the very strategic, specific
intention into how you go about this.

Igor Kheifets: Yes, absolutely. So, the frame in which the original idea ...
Doesn't have to be a speaker, right? Just the idea that's introduced, the frame of
it dictates the way we'll perceive it. I've heard of a similar example. If I were
to introduce you on the show. I could quite literally use the exact same example
you've just given us. I can say, "Kameron George is a cold, calculated
professional marketer." Or, I can say, "Kameron George is a warm, nice guy,
calculated professional marketer."

So the first instance, you come across as this almost serial killer cold ... This
distant person. The second one is like the way you are in real life, you're warm,
loving, this cool guy with tons of charisma that also happens to be a badass at

The frame dictates everything. And I've literally completed a training session
today where I was teaching this to our inner circle members. I told them, look,
"Your job as an affiliate is not to close the sale. It's really not. Your job is
to make the match, which means you must figure out where your prospect is
mentally, and where they need to be in order to appreciate the offer. Bridge that
gap and send them off to check out the affiliate offer with an open mind."

That's pretty much it, you're kind of like sending her off on a date, but you're
not there to make her kiss him. You're not there to make sure they get married.
You're just there to pre-frame her date as being really just what she's been
looking all this time in spite of her having tons of bad dates in the past, or in
spite of this being even her first date, and her not knowing what to expect.

It's all about the framing, which then dictates the perception. Perception is what
leads to a great user experience.

Kameron George: Absolutely, see we have the ability as marketers in this day and
age to engineer perception. How do we want somebody to be looking at something?
How do we want it to be viewed? How do we want it to be framed?

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, I completely agree with you. In fact, I think I saw a YouTube
video today where a professional social media influencer went on CNN or some other
news channel, and he was blaming Mark Zuckerberg for controlling the frame that we
have about the election. Because, he said that, Zuckerberg said something when he
was a prosecutor of whatever that hearing was lately. He said something along the
lines of, "We'll get the next election." Or something like that, basically
implying that they are now gonna dictate to people through their newsfeed how to
perceive the candidates.

Kameron George: The crazy thing is that that is what's possible in this day and
age because of technology. We all live in a bubble. That's where right now the
biggest change is happening, especially in the internet marketing space for people
that are new to the space, and that are just starting to really step into the
space as an influencer, as an affiliate. Starting to build their own lists,
starting to run promotions. It's like this is a new world for them.

For the first time, they're stepping out into this new bubble. But most people are
sitting inside of this bubble. The bubble is getting smaller and tighter if
anything, because of the internet in certain ways. The way that Facebook is
adhering to our interests. They're trying to show us more of what's inside our
bubble. Google is doing the same thing, and it's just creating more of this bubble
and a smaller circle of influence in a lot of ways.

It's good and bad. It's serving us, but it's closing us off, in some ways, to
outside perspectives and opinions.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, and this is something, that's one of the reasons why I don't
get on social media anymore. Besides the fact that it just hurts my productivity
like hell. I just don't like the fact that I have to now consume so many opinions
in the frames. If that makes sense, like it's enough that I have to deal with it
in my day to day life, but now it seems that everyone and their brother has the
ability to control my frame. The interesting part is that even if I'm resistant to
it, I still fall under that influence because the brain just works like that.

It's enough for someone to suggest something in the form of a question, and I
immediately start wondering that, which to me means I'm giving away control over
my mind.

Now, from a perspective of a self-sufficient, self-made man, that's of course not
such a great thing. But from a perspective of marketing, that is a great thing
because you get to control the frames that other people have about what you're

Of course, Kameron, I'm sure you agree with me, but we have to say this, look,
this is really powerful stuff. And recognizing this concept can dramatically,
dramatically improve your conversions if not outright change them completely. You
hold the responsibility to market things that are of value and do good in this
world, rather than manipulating people into buying shit they don't need.

Kameron George: That's the big difference. To me, I believe it's always about
coming from a frame of win-win. I think in society we naturally have this frame,
especially if we're like watching sports. In order for someone to win, someone
else has to lose. That's why there's always been this kind of mentality. You can
get it when you talk to somebody and they think that you're trying to take
advantage of them because in order for you to win, that means I have to lose. If
I'm gonna win, you're not gonna lose.

Versus this new frame, this different paradigm, of win-win. How can we win
together? The most successful entrepreneurs, the most successful business people,
are always, always approaching everything in their lives looking for win-win. The
truth is, if you create a scenario, a situation, where you're providing something
of value and being rewarded equally, then you shouldn't be doing it. I think that
kind of goes without saying, but I just genuinely believe coming from a place of

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, and so with that said, it's really important to recognize the
opposite is that the marketplace is so noisy at this point, that you have to be
efficient at controlling other people's frames in order to be able to deliver your
high quality, high value solution to them.

Just like you, Kameron, was able to do that with all the great companies you've
built. Which again, we're not naming any particular names, just to keep it clean,
but basically I know at least three companies that you've built where you're
extremely effective at controlling the customer's frame in a way where you allowed
for transformation to take place. Right? Because of the value you deliver.

Frame control, which can also be considered as manipulation by some people, when
done for the greater good is something that I truly believe one of the ways to
change the world. I don't wanna get into too big of a conversation, but honestly,
Kameron, tell me what do you think? Is it ethical for someone to control my frame
if I'm really overweight and unhealthy? And for them to manipulate, quote unquote
manipulate, my frame into losing weight and getting healthy?

Kameron George: When you really learn sales and marketing at the highest level, we
have the free will to be able to apply these in any direction. I consciously
choose to do good. I believe that the most powerful thing that any one of us can
do is be an example of what's possible. I choose to use my ability to influence,
and to inspire, in order to help people move forward in a direction that is
healthy and productive, that is gonna lead to greater happiness and good. I
genuinely believe that it is making the world a better place. We all kind of need
to take on that personal responsibility.

Going back to what we were talking here about the user experience, about being
able to control frame, about being able to understand influence, it really can be
distilled down to learning two things. Sales and marketing, traffic and
conversions. Traffic is nothing more than being able to get your offer in front of
the right people, and conversions is like it's that conversion environment.

To me, conversion, that sales funnel, the user experience that we're talking
about, that's what's so key and so important, but ultimately it comes down to the
best people, the number one skills that we're ultimately all learning, and the
best entrepreneurs have learned and are mastering is understanding influence, is
understanding sales, is understanding how to communicate effectively. It's like if
we're really breaking this down into ...

Let's say you're playing a video game and there are all these different attributes
that you had from your health bar, to your strength, your dexterity. We're
ultimately looking at, what is your ability to sell and influence? What is your
ability to get your offer in front of people? How are they viewing that? You know
what I mean? Those are the things that were, those are the fundamental
foundational things that people really need to be working on and to understand and
start taking responsibility for that I believe is very valuable.

I think one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of people make when they first come
into the affiliate marketing, internet marketing area is they're disillusioned
with how easy and effortless it is going to be in order to create a result or
income. That I just have to place this one ad, and all the work's gonna be done
for me.

While that isn't not true, I mean easy is a relative term. Placing ads online,
learning how to sell, learning how to market, reading books, bettering yourself,
that's a heck of a lot easier than working in the oil field industry, where you're
out at 5 o'clock in the morning having to frigging' run pipe. It is a relative
term, right? But easy in the sense of 'something for nothing,' is disillusioned,
disenchantment that I believe is kind of plaguing the industry. I do believe that
people kind of need to get over and get past that, and start to own the fact of
who they need to become, the skills that they're going to have to learn, the
things that they're gonna be able to work on that are going to be able to produce
them an income, results, and lifestyle that most people can't imagine.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, and I think it explains why so many people fail in the
industry. In terms of like the 95 or 96% that don't make anything, and 4% who make
a lot. I think those 4%, and no pun intended for Vick Strizheus' 4% group, but I
think what the 4% have done well, and of course, I attribute myself and yourself,
and anyone who makes more than I would say 5-10K per month online, to those 4%. We
all come from a place of self responsibility. In other words, we don't go around
blaming other people, circumstances, traffic sources, and tactics on our failures.
We approach the business from a standpoint of, "What do I need to do to get the
great results? And if I'm not getting the good results, what am I not doing

That sense of responsibility that we put on ourselves is driving us towards

Kameron George: That is the key distinction that I believe everybody has, that
anybody who has achieved any sort of significant results has taken on. That is
really what I'm trying to say here is, if you will take, and you will own the user
experience, you will own the funnel, that there is no offer, there is nothing that
if you're excited about, that you couldn't promote effectively. That really comes
down to understanding one of the other key principles that I do believe that
individuals need to understand. That is the economics of the funnel and the things
that you are promoting.

When you combine taking ownership of a user experience, a user experience
depending how shallow or deep that you go, gives you the ability, when you've
taken responsibility of that, gives you the ability to dictate and grow, and
impact and affect, the average customer value. The value that a customer has for
you. There's been no company, it doesn't matter the industry, doesn't matter the
niche, doesn't matter if it's physical product, digital product, information. It
does not matter. What you really ultimately have to understand the economics ...

What I mean by that is, what is the cost that you are paying to acquire a
customer? And what is that customer's value to you? That value to you is obviously
gonna be ... That value to you, the value that that customer has to you, is
directly proportionate, directly proportionate, to that user experience. Igor
Kheifets: Yeah, absolutely. The more addict- I don't wanna say addictive because
it's not really the term here, but the more intuitive I would say, your user
experience within your sales funnels ...

Igor Kheifets: By the way, I really want to put this into practical terms for
people who aren't really familiar with the concept. When we talk about your user
experience, what we're really talking about is your funnel. Is your marketing
material being able to elegantly move the prospect along this discovery path up
until the point where they start consuming your programs and products. Do it in a
way where before they can even ask question, you're already answering that
question for them. That's true both for your content and for your marketing. It's
something we chatted about before we started recording this interview.

User experience is primarily your sales funnels, your content, your emails. That's
not something that's outside of your locus of control such as your affiliate link,
which is pretty much its set as it is. You get it, you can't change it. The only
things you can change is the pre-frame and the kind of content/marketing, or
marketing/content that your potential customers are consuming or going through
prior to being exposed to your affiliate link. Is that correct?

Kameron George: Absolutely, and I would like to add this one thing, is that when
you're taking in account ... Like, if I'm putting a product, if I have an
affiliate product that I'm promoting in there, that I'm recommending, afreet
somebody has purchased that product and they've consumed it, they're gonna have a
new level of understanding. Meaning that I need to take into account what it
inside of the products that I'm promoting, because that is now a piece of my user

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, this is profound. Most people don't think that way. I think
for most people when it comes to designing the user experience for their
customers, it ends somewhere on the sales page.

Kameron George: And obviously, when we're first getting started, the first thing
we're starting to learn how to do is getting a basic funnel done. This brings me
to ... There's ultimately three phases that I take every single business through.
Every single business ties into these three phases. Those are the three phases of:
build, optimize, and scale.

Now, most of the people that are listening to this are probably still in the build
phase. Some of them maybe think that they got through it, even if they've already
made six or seven figures, I've literally consulted and worked with clients that
probably a lot of your listeners have heard of, that have done this wrong, but
still managed to have success. Just because you manage to have success doesn't
mean that it can be consistent or that it is duplicatable and repeatable.

However, when you apply what I'm telling you here right now, it becomes that. Most
people ...

So, it's build, optimize, and then scale. The holy grail, the point where you're
going to have a business that is consistently producing six, multiple six, seven
or multiple seven figures, is when you get to the point of being able to scale.
Now what means that you have the ability to scale, means that you have a campaign
where you know without an irrefutable doubt that when you put one dollar in,
you're getting at least two out.

Meaning that you know how much it is going to cost you, with absolute certainty,
to be able to acquire a visitor to your website, to be able to acquire a lead, to
be able to acquire a customer. You know absolutely what it is gonna cost you to
acquire that customer, and you know based on averages and metrics, what that
customer is going to be worth to you. You cannot scale a campaign without
understanding those numbers and those economics.

Any action taken without knowing that, is gambling. Period.

Igor Kheifets: Absolutely.

Kameron George: When you understand those, that's ultimately what we wanna get to.
How you get there is by building properly. So, build phase is just when you put
together, like I have the offers that I'm gonna promote. Let's say I've licensed a
high ticket product, or I've signed up for an affiliate program that I really like
and understand. It's the ad created that I'm gonna put out there. I'm gonna design
an ad, design my landing page, I've put an offer together, and I've got this very
basic user experience. It's gonna lead them up to purchasing that very first
product. Where I've communicated effectively to an audience, very effectively, and
made it intuitive for them learn, know, and understand the need, desire, and key
points that are gonna have them make a buying decision.

I'm doing this in a way that is enjoyable. Meaning that, I mean personally this is
the way I like to approach things. To me, every sales piece that I've ever made,
people have thanked me for. Meaning that whether they bought or not, they were
like, "Thank you so much." I have a very basic philosophy that I'm always going to
leave a good taste in people's mouth. I don't feel the need for a hard close. I
believe that if they can see and understand the value for what they need, that I
can make the right offer at the right time to the right audience, that they are
going to take that action.

Marketing to me is more of a sifting and sorting, and it's not convincing. If that
makes sense.

So, in the build phase is when we're putting together that very basic framework,
we're putting together that very basic user experience. We're building our first
ad, we're setting up our first landing page. We're getting our first video or
sales letter in there. We're putting our first few emails in place to be able to
follow up with them.

Those are very basic tactics and strategies to get them there. That's the build up
phase. Obviously, a build phase can go deeper into what happens after they've
bought that product. How are we walking them through and exposing them to our
other products and stuff? That's the build phases. That's where most people are.
It's actually the phase that most people have done wrong.

Why I say that they've done it wrong is because they haven't taken step two into
account, which is optimize. This is where all the magic happens. Without
optimizing effectively, you cannot scale. You can't get the numbers. You can't get
the information that you need.

Now a proper build phase, although yes we are building out our ad, we're building
out our landing page, we're starting to build our list, we're sending our follow
up emails. We have the very basis of our user experience. We need to understand
that as marketers we are really testing at all times. I want the people to more
take an approach of like a lab coat. That everything is a hypothesis. That I'm
gonna give it my best try, my best understanding, and I want to go be able to do
that effectively.

So when we build something, what most people do wrong is they don't set it up for
split testing. They don't build two ads. They don't build two landing pages.
They're not testing any of their ideas. They haven't set up tracking properly, and
they haven't set up any way to be able to split test things properly to be able to
try out these ideas. The reality is that no ad campaign that I've ever run has
been successful out of the gate. I've had different initial ideas, I've tested it,
I've grown it. Successful marketing campaigns are created. They're created through
proper optimization.

Here's what I mean by that. Is that when you do this build phase properly, you put
tracking in place, you have a couple of your ideas that you're trying to be able
to distill this down and figure out what your audience really wants. That's really
what it is. It is a process of figuring out what your audience really wants. We
don't know how to read minds. No one expects you to know this stuff right out of
the gate.

You learn this stuff from taking action, from putting your best ideas out there in
the best way that you possibly can, by taking action and starting to design your
very first funnel properly. Starting to really take the intention of laying out a
user experience, and then starting to test it. When you test that, and you start
putting it out there in the wild. You start going to people like you, Igor, and
buying traffic. You start going and placing ads on Facebook. As those people come
through you're gonna see how they're responding to the different messages. That is
the optimization phase, where you're looking at the stats.

If I generated 200 clicks, what did they turn into leads? It's at that point that
you're just optimizing and dialing in your funnel to the point where you know that
you can test small. Meaning that I can go spend small amounts on ads, before I'm
ever gonna scale big. I've seen [inaudible 00:36:55] before that have spent, in
some cases over a $100,000, without anything to show for it because they just
tried to throw a ton of money at a campaign, at an affiliate offer, at a funnel
that was given to them, whatever they first put out. It's unfortunate because they
weren't applying these philosophies and principles that could virtually guarantee
your success.

Igor Kheifets: Yeah, you're basically letting the marketplace tell you what works
and what doesn't. Of course, before you can do that you need to have a version of
1.0 of your funnel, which most people don't have, which is what really holds them
back. They're afraid to even create that because they wanna get it perfect from
the first time. Here's what I can tell you. I've learned way more from my
failures, I've learned way more from the campaigns that didn't work, than from
campaigns that worked right off the gate.

Because the ones that worked right off the gate, I was never able to tell exactly
why. I could only guess. When I launch a campaign and it completely fails, and
then I relaunch it with a different angle or overcome an objection of some kind,
and it succeeds, then I know. I learned a little bit more about the marketplace,
which of course after years of doing that, you end up developing this very clear
idea of what you can and cannot do. Then, your business gets very predictable.

Now Kameron, look, I know we can go on and on and on and on for hours talking
about this stuff. Unfortunately, we're just out of air time.

So, what I would like to do is I would like to point the list builders to a place
where they can find out more about you, and where they can go and get more of your
material. Probably, okay, and I'm guessing here, probably in the form of
blueprints, checklists, and in a systematized form that will allow them to quickly
and easily implement everything we've discussed today and more in their own

Kameron George: Absolutely, they can feel free to just go to my personal website, Or feel free to search me up on any form of social media,
Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. I love when people reach out and I'm definitely
gonna be producing a lot more content in the future. You can think of this
interview a little bit as my coming out party. There's gonna be a lot more content
and training.

I really love being able to help people bridge this gap. Where my sweet spot is,
is I love taking people from seven figures to multiple seven figures, but it
doesn't mean that anybody should be left behind. I do believe that anybody who has
access to the right framework, the right information, and the right guidance,
regardless of their background, has the ability to create a full-time income
online. That's what I love so much about what you're doing here with your

So, please, for anybody who does want to reach out to me, have contact, look me up
on social media, or just go over to

Igor Kheifets: All right, so guys, you heard the man. It's, with
a 'k.' Right? Kameron with a K. Or, Kameron's also very active on social media.
He's got a bunch of YouTube videos, he's live on Instagram, he's on Facebook. He's
everything I'm not, so go on and look him up at kamerongeorge, with a 'k,' again
very important, with 'k', Kameron with a 'k.' Get on his social media, whatever,
and make sure to be on the website. Get on his mailing list.

Do whatever you want, because if you'd like to learn how to play the big game,
right? How to dive into the deep end of the pool when it comes to internet
marketing, how to produce these multi six figures, and multi seven figures
campaigns, Kameron is the dude to learn from. You wanna be consuming as much of
his material as possible because just talking to him prior to this interview,
alone, I took a bunch of notes and I'm gonna go ahead and implement that to scale
our business.

So, Kameron, again thank you very much for taking out the time of your busy
schedule. Well, who am I kidding? You're not busy. You're working like three hours
a week, come on. Anyway, it's been difficult enough to get you on the show. So I
really appreciate you making the time to wrap with me and the list builders.

Guys, once again, to learn from Kam, go ahead and look him up on social media, or
check out, and until next time we chat, have a good one.

Thank you for listening to The List Building Lifestyle. Make sure to subscribe on
iTunes or Google Play to never miss an episode, because who knows? Just one
conversion tactic we share on the show might double your list and double your
business. Download the transcript of today's episode and all future episodes at And don't forget to claim your complimentary copy
of The Wealthy List Builders Survival Guide at .
This is Igor Kheifets, and until next time we talk, have a good one.

Who Is Igor Kheifets

Igor Kheifets is the 3rd highest-earning super-affiliate in the internet marketing niche.

Igor’s 2-step system has helped him consistently rank as the highest-earning and the highest-converting (measured in commissions earned per click) for industry’s leading vendors including but not limited to Matt Bacak, John Crestani and Anthony Morrison.

Igor boiled down success in affiliate marketing to a set of predictable easy steps anyone can take to generate commissions.


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