The New School of Copywriters with Alex Cattoni

I’m Igor Kheifets, and this is the list building lifestyle. The podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my bestselling book, the list building lifestyle confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus a $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now it’s time to claim your list building lifestyle.

00:52

Welcome back to the list building lifestyle. I’m your host, Igor Kheifets and I’m really struggling with my voice today. But I’m still going to host this episode because today I’m hosting none other than Alex Cattoni. And I’ve been trying to get her for months on the show. We kept her schedule and kept delaying, you know, things weren’t working out. But we’re finally here. And if you don’t know who Alex is, she’s widely considered to be very good, let’s just keep it downplay this very good copywriter, she actually runs one of the largest copywriting communities on the internet. She has been featured in Forbes Mindvalley, and founder magazine, she used to run mind valleys marketing department and helped grow it by 300%. She rose from being a support rep, all the way to the marketing director of marketing and chief, and then eventually branched out to start her own company. And recently, she’s been crowned the 2022, marketer of the Year by Digital Marketer.

01:58

I guess that means something. So, Alex, welcome to the list building lifestyle. Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. And speaking of illis building lifestyle, I’m at a cabin in the woods right now. Which you know, is really all thanks to sending emails. Exactly. Send emails make money, that’s life. I mean, I don’t know of anything else that just I mean, just in general, copywriting is great, because what else allows you to put words on paper or on a website, or in an email?

02:32

And then people just send you money? Like, it’s just, it’s almost alchemy, right? I always say that. It’s like, it’s the number one skill that I think obviously, I’m biased. But it’s, you need nothing but a laptop and a Google Doc, you know, it’s you don’t need fancy tech skills, you don’t need any software, you don’t need any apps, you don’t need a super strong internet connection. As long as you know, have enough internet to load a Google Doc, then you can take your copywriting business anywhere, which is really exciting. Yeah. And I know some copywriters who are really terrible with their computers too, like all they can do is literally send emails and, you know, maybe join the occasional zoom call. I’ve hosted some of them on the show, because they’re like legends in space. But then, you know, when I was trying to get them on, like a separate zoom call, maybe get them here in Riverside, we record, you know, they tend to run into trouble. And really, you know, it’s like calling their assistant on a telephone that goes like where you have to, like, you know, doesn’t work? Yeah.

03:40

All right. Well, you know, I’ve been looking at your website, and you got a mission statement. And it states that you’re on a mission to de douchey the internet. What does that mean? Well, first of all, I’m a copywriter. So, I know, you know the importance of creating some polarity and getting attention. You know, honestly, that kind of came organically after I started the coffee posse, I didn’t have that mission fully crystallized into those exact words when I started my community. But why I started the coffee policy was because I had been, you know, after leaving Mindvalley in 2011, and starting my consulting, marketing consulting and copywriting business. I like many people, I’m sure who have you know, gone into a new industry, you’re started something new at first, you’re like, Oh, my God, excited. I thought everybody was incredible. I thought nobody lies on the internet, and then nobody and then I, you know, started to notice a really dangerous divide happening in the industry where there were a lot of really amazing authentic marketers with great products and great community. Yes, of course. And then there were a lot of people who literally were just coming up with

05:00

JD and JD your ways to make more money and I just remember feeling really disheartened by that. And then the other thing I noticed was despite, you know, because I come from a personal development background and coming from Mindvalley, where, you know, the majority of the executive team were all women. I knew so many incredible, you know, women copywriters, and marketers yet, when you typed copywriting into YouTube, like all you saw, were guys teaching it, I was like, okay, I learned from all of them.

05:32

Like, that’s amazing. But like, I talked to so many women who don’t think that copywriting is for them, because somehow, they’re not being represented online. And I’m like, you know what, okay, I can either cut and run, go to law school, like, you know, my initial plan. Or I can start talking about, hey, you gave up law school for this. I gave up law school for that. Did your parents say, you know, what, they were so supportive, I think, really, it was it was, it was baby steps, though. I wasn’t like mom and dad, you know, F Law School. I’m just gonna go work overseas, it was more like, hey, Mom and Dad, I’m going to put law school on hold for six months, and then go do this internship overseas, but then I’m going to come back and do law school. And then of course, the rest is history. I discovered internet marketing, I discovered personal development, I started working on myself, I started traveling the world and it was like, why would I ever do anything else? Right?

06:25

So yeah, so I have this, you know, very strong calling to start talking about how to use marketing in a way that I felt like, I believe marketers and copywriters alike, we have the power to change the world. Every movement, every campaign, everything that’s ever, you know, spurred an emotion or desire in you to take action, you know, after reading something is, is copywriting. And there’s so many incredible ways to use it to make a difference in people’s lives and in the world. And yes, make money. We all love money. I love money. It’s great. But, you know, how can we change the face of marketing? And so, I started talking about this. And it wasn’t until, you know, sometime in my first year, you know, as I started building my community, and I was getting really fired up about, about changing the face of marketing and going, okay, posse, like, that was why I called it the posse, I’m like, I want us to feel like this global army of really amazing people who are out there, like, doing the work and changing the way marketing is done. And it just fell out of my mouth. I said, you know, we want to, like, do shoot by the internet. And the response that I got from my community was like, oh, my God, and I was like, okay, that, that struck a chord with people. So, I just finished my mission to those beautiful, you know, short, three words. And, yeah, that’s how it came to be. I think you nailed it. Because it resonates instantly, there’s no ambiguity about it, either. Like, everybody can probably assign a meaning to that statement that it means most to them. It’s specific, but it’s, it’s relatable, because everyone can think of a time in their lives, where they were duped by some sort of, you know, misleading marketing, force continuity, you know, fine print, you know, HYPER clickbait, I mean, we can all think of that experience, and it’s not nice, and it evokes emotions. So, what I don’t like about the whole way the industry works is after a potential customer, who’s potential customer for me, but was the customer, somebody else who, and they put them through that experience?

08:35

They come in with that baggage. It’s almost like oh, yeah, yeah, it’s almost like trying to approach a woman in a bar that’s just been burned by three guys. And she’s like, lost all hope and men. But she still hopes to find love. So, all of a sudden, you find yourself having conversations with lots of barriers that you don’t even you don’t even know you’re dealing with 100%. And that happens to me all the time, where, and I think that that’s, I mean, we can talk a little bit about where I think the future of marketing is going. But people are taking longer to make buying decisions now. For two reasons. There are way more options available. So, like, you’re not the only one who teaches email marketing. I’m not the only one who teaches copywriting even more like people now have so many options, like how long does it take you to pick a Netflix movie every night? Like, there’s, oh, it’s easy. I just go for what I know. I just watched the office all over again. You know what, that’s my go to when I’m like, I just need background noise. And I don’t want to be super committed to it. I’m just gonna put on the office totally.

09:33

We’re probably around the same age because I think that like that’s like, like, just my safe space is the office but it’s, it’s amazing. It’s so but it’s funny as hell too. But yeah, so there’s so many options. And then to your point, people are skeptical because they’re like, oh, I’ve purchased so many things online and like people don’t deliver on what they say. And so, you really do feel like you’re having to consistently add value and build trust over a longer period of time before someone takes action.

10:00

But the beauty, the beautiful thing about that is once we are able to get there with a customer and for us, it takes on average over 30 days for someone to buy from us. They’re with us for life, you know, and that, to me is how marketing is really shifting. And I get so frustrated, like, obviously, I won’t mention names, but I was on a mastermind at one point, like last year or something, and I’m sitting at a bar with this incredibly intoxicated marketer, who I’ve known for a while. And, you know, I could tell I was ruffling his feathers by what I’m talking about now, which is, by the way, my mission only offends people who so, are doing shady shit. Like, that’s the only people that offense. But you know, he literally said to me, I have to do scammy or, and spammy or shit to make the same amount of money as I did before. And it’s like, Excuse me? Like, why not actually look at how the market is changing, and how the market is making decisions differently and adapt that way, as opposed to it’s a race to the bottom if you’re just literally trying. And I mean, at that point, I got up and left the conversation, because it’s like, he’s the reason why I literally exist and why I have the business that I do.

11:13

And it’s unfortunate. And it’s, it’s, it’s still the reality out there. It kind of reminds me of what I have read, what’s the book called? Who Moved My Cheese? Yes. Like, it’s that right? Isn’t it like, because he was making or she was making a lot of money. And then the cheese moved. And now they’re complaining about the cheese being moved. So, they have to like, do they try and do the same thing to get the result instead of adapting? No, for me, it was actually quite the opposite. Because I started out. And I didn’t know any better. And I honestly was willing to do anything just to make money. So, I will try anything. And at one point, I did something really scammy. So, I found an E, an email sending tool, which doesn’t exist anymore, actually. It was called inika mail. And they nikad the way their interface worked is you could set up a brand new from name and from email, as you were loading the email as well. So, you could literally make it up like they didn’t ask you to, to confirm your addresses to nothing, you could make anything up. So, at the time, it was also going on the Warrior Forum a lot. That was like my go to place for advice before they got bought out by a freelancer and then kind of went downhill from there for me, for some reason, almost like a rock band that used to play a certain type of music and then just switched. And you’re like, no, I don’t, I don’t connect that anymore. So, I just started sending out emails as if these are your forum private messages.

12:52

Because I knew everybody was on the word forum in the internet marketing community. And I would literally recommend products from the warrior So, special offers section. And they were always like five bucks, 10 bucks, 20 bucks, cheap, but some of them paid 100% Commission on them and paid 50%. So, I would I would like send an email to maybe 50,000 People like that. And all of a sudden, I would get like 50 sales.

13:19

And it was amazing. And then I got shut down. And then about two years later, the owner of the Warrior Forum reached out to me to be like, hey, I was just told that you’re doing this scammy shit. And so, you know, good kicking you out. And at the time was running ads on the Warrior Forum for my coaching program. And I was really well. So, I was like, no, please, I’m begging you. So, I’d like to confess to him. It’s like no, I did a couple years ago, I was a shithead. I didn’t know what I was doing. And it was a big mistake. I don’t do it anymore. And so, you know, he let it slide. But, you know, for me, evolution was exactly the opposite. Like starting with the shady shit.

13:58

And then kind of gradually learning the proper principles to building a long-term business and long-term income, connection with your customers and getting people who are with you for life. I mean, there’s some people on my list. We just launched a new program. And everyone who joined it, about 100 people, were all existing customers. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So that’s what we see to about 80% of our revenue from new programs we release comes from existing customers and, and I love that and by the way, thank you for your transparency, like I think most people would never want to admit like, yeah, I was the one doing some that scammy ship, but that’s, I think like the analogy that I think of is like I get it, it’s low hanging fruit and in the beginning anytime, like, you know, there’s that. There’s that adage, it’s like, anytime there’s a new technology or something, it’s like internet marketers are going to just ruin it because they’re going to find a way to be sleazy with it and then it’s going to get shut down. And that’s why when I think of true marketing and building your business, you don’t want to think of it like this cockroach. This is just constantly running to like a new dark spot every time like a light shone on it. It’s really about visuals. Yeah. Throwing into another dark spot. Wow, that could be the title of this podcast. Don’t be a cockroach. Yeah.

15:19

But it’s, it’s, I think there are a lot of people who that’s how they learn to do marketing. It’s like, oh, it’s like, I’m gonna use this new technology until I can’t use it anymore. Because eventually people are gonna find me out and I’m gonna then have to go find something else. Yeah, it’s like, God. To me. That sounds like so much work. That’s like, that sounds stressful. Having your shoulder all the time. Exactly. Like, you know, you know, I know, I’ve worked with clients in the past or I’ve, you know, had, you know, peers in the industry, that it’s just like the constant, the constant threat of your ad account getting shut down. And like, that’s still a thing. You know, we all know that. Those accounts get shut down even if you’re not scamming. Exactly, but obviously, the likelihood of it goes and when we say scammy like obviously it’s a spectrum like there’s long-term full blown like scams, like you’re saying being scammy is kind of like being autistic.

16:12

You went there, I didn’t. I think that people always ask me like, like, well, what douching is on the internet. I’m like, you can define it in whichever way you want. Like for me, there’re impersonators and content stealers. There’s the real like fraudsters who, you know, anyone who has Info Products knows what I’m talking about, where you’re just like whack a mole, like constantly trying to get these people to stop stealing your crap. And scamming your followers. And I mean, it’s never ending. But then there’s this like, gray area of like, really, it’s up to you to decide. And for me, the way I define it is like, ultimately, if I was on the receiving end of this marketing, how would it make me feel? Because I think the old school mentality of marketing was like, I don’t want to say old school, like everyone did this back in the day, but you know, it was so novel, like the internet was so novel. So, all you really needed to do was to be like, do you have this problem? I can solve it for you by clicking here and then buying my shit. And people did it because it was like, whoa. The market is getting savvier and savvier and savvier. And so, we need to stop treating people like idiots, because they’re not idiots. And they’re smart, maybe smarter than us. And so, it’s kind of this idea of, for me, at least, like how can I be just really authentic and transparent, but still use like, I still use scarcity. If it’s legit and real. I still put countdown timers on things. Yeah. No, you’re not scamming. Scarcity is about just properly pushing people off the fence. Exactly. And so, I would argue it’s required. I don’t think an offer I agree with well, without I think urgency and scarcity is absolutely important. And I think there’s ways to do it authentically. Even if it’s like an evergreen offer. There’s, you know, with some of the tech that’s available, like you absolutely can. And so, I just wanted to start with that. Because depending on where you’re at, and the level of education you have around online marketing, I’m sure your audience is very, you know, very, very educated on it all. A lot of a lot of people who aren’t might be like, oh, I’m feeling pressure to buy, it’s like, okay, like, is it pressure to buy is an urgency? Or is it like, buy my stuff, or else you’re doomed, and your life is gonna, like crumble to the ground? It’s like finding what feels good to you. And knowing that, like, there’s a difference between marketing tactics that work because they work and we’re all inherent procrastinators and need that push off the fence versus like, the shady shit that we all like, you know, hey, and so it’s, it’s, that’s why do you think this is just the perfect umbrella term?

18:39

No, it truly is. Are you into copywriting? Because, like, sounds risky? Yeah, it must be. I’ll throw that in another thing about scarcity. And before I move on to my next question, I do believe that scarcity is critically important. And you don’t have to be lying about things. But what people don’t realize is that scarcity is important. Not just because people procrastinate, like in the moment, like, oh, yeah, I would really love that. But I’ll get to it later. That’s actually, I think, maybe less than 30% of consumers. I think, for the most part, the reason we need scarcity is because, and I learned that actually, not because of the marketing that we do, but because of my internal team and myself, is I noticed that if I’m working on a project, and there’s no actual deadline that the project isn’t going anywhere, right? I mean, if there’s like a whiteboard, and I have this much space for working on it, and this much space for some, like, I’ll take this much space, just gonna fill up all that space. 100% It’s human nature. Like if I say to you, like you can buy this now, for $100 Although they’re more than that. 200 units, whatever, or you can buy them in a week at the exact same price, but you’re gonna be like, okay, I’ll just buy them later. And that’s human nature. 

20:00

You know, I think, uh, yeah, so I’m a big proponent of scarcity, anybody who follows any of my stuff, and I find ways even in an evergreen fashion to be able to use scarcity, like limited time bonuses, and that truly do expire. And uh there’s ways to do it where it’s, it’s, it’s absolutely real. And I agree every single campaign I run has uh scarcity in it. And so, I think where it becomes a slippery slope is, you know, when it starts to become fake, you know, so I always say like, just don’t fake anything, you know, you can automate it, but don’t fake it, you know? Yeah. That’s a good point. Really good point.

20:39

So going back to consumers who get duped get burned. What do you think about this? Tell me if you disagree, agree, or people kind of stop after being lied to or taken advantage of, or having their expectations not met a few times, people stopped not only trusting us as a collective representative of the education space online, but also themselves. Like I noticed that they really don’t try, like, the way you see it is they would refuse to get on the webinar, they would refuse to get on a phone call, they will refuse to engage you because they’re afraid. And they don’t trust themselves to make the right decision.

21:23

Yeah, I think that that could be it for sure. It’s an interesting way to think about it. And I think you hit the nail on the head, you know, is that right now, mistrust in the market is at an all-time high. So, if I had to name the top two currencies that are the most important in online marketing right now, it would be attention, and trust. And I do think that people are so inundated with people wanting stuff from them. I mean, I get so many cold outreach emails daily, I get, you know, DMS and text met, like, you know, text messages, and you’re like, how did this person get my number or, you know, the scammy text messages, which like your Netflix account is needing to be, you know, topped up and you’re like, oh, my gosh, how many people fall for that? I think you get the bar that says you need to pay your taxes with a gift card, I get those. I can’t like your package being out for delivery, click here. And it’s like, DHL, something like, it’s so sneaky. And oh, it’s like the stuff that really pisses me off. But, you know, I think about my father, who is very, very vulnerable, he has an aging brain injury, and he can’t quite discern between, you know, what is a good decision, or what’s a bad decision, and he emails me every day being like.

22:42

I have this payment that I’m like, no doubt, like, I just think about all the, you know, senior citizens, or the people who have, you know, any sort of cognitive disabilities, like my father, like, I think of them, and I’m like, men, if, if I’m being nearly duped, then I just, it really pains me to think about that. And so, we all have that experience. And so, nobody’s nobody trusts anybody. And you’re right, as a byproduct of that. It could be that we’re starting to kind of not trust ourselves. Because I know that as someone who is incredibly literate with online marketing stuff, there have been times where I have fallen or almost fallen for some sort of a scam, you know, when you get a Facebook message from an actual good friend, who you were just talking about to, or talking to, like three days ago, and they’re like, is this you and they send you the link and you’re like, what, like, I get it if it’s someone from high school that you haven’t talked to you, but and so I can imagine how like, I feel, I guess, a shame, just kind of the word like, I can’t believe I fell for that. And so, I do think you’re right, I think people are losing trust in themselves, because they’re like, I don’t, I don’t trust my ability to be able to make a good decision here. And they’re gonna use their marketing superpowers, and they’re gonna manipulate my brain and I’m, you know, and I think that to me, that that’s, that’s scary. Because what we actually need to do right now is double down on our intuition and our and our humaneness and what makes us actual living breathing, creative, strategic, smart people, or else it’s just, it’s not going to be good. I also say we should double down on this press, but that’s just my opinion. I love that. I had a lot of coffee this morning. So yes. All right. Well, let’s talk about something that everybody talks about these days. What are your feelings around? Chatter?

24:28

I know you’re gonna ask me that. Honestly, okay, well, one just sidebar note like reflection is I don’t know if it’s just me, but I feel like it’s gotten worse lately than it was more like watered down. Or yeah, more watered down, more generic and like more wordy and more dramatic. Like what is happening here. It’s like, people are trying to play with personality in their versions of ChatGPT. Right. They’re like training it and like, that’s actually like the funny conversation about it.

25:00

Is like, again like anything right? Rip, I think it’s a super exciting tool. I love to play around with it in my business. I love to use it in many different ways, not just ChatGPT for word generation, but there’re so many incredible ways that you can use AI for improving accessibility of your content. You know, like immediate transcripts on your zoom calls, like that’s AI, you know, making your content immediately scannable and searchable in your membership sites. I mean, there’s so many different tools and use cases where for me, I think it’s exciting. I came up with many Alex yet. Not yet. No, not yet. Would you just get a mini-Igor instead? Yeah, I mean, I’ll play around with it. To be honest, I think. I think one thing that I find really interesting, like scrolling through my Facebook feed is there’s way more AI generated images in, you know, obviously, I follow like a lot of marketers and people like that, then real images, and I’m so curious, like, in a year or two years, like, we’ll be at masterminds. And we’ll all be like, comparing, oh, I split tests and AI version of me versus the real version of me, which one’s better? Whatever. You know, for me, obviously, you know, the second part of my mission is to build an empathy empire. So, I’m like, really all about doubling down on mini-Igor being real. And I think that the more people start using AI to generate content, the more real people are gonna stand out more. So, I’m not against using it at all.

26:25

I just think it’s important not to, like, throw the baby out with the bathwater and be like, This, is it I never have to create a piece of content ever again, you know, um, and, you know, I think, I think, yeah, I just think it creates a great opportunity. I train my copywriters on how to use it to do ideation, customer profiling, and there’s so many use cases for it’s for the good of the customer. It is, you know, it’s, it’s like, oh, I never would have thought of that specific challenge. Would I say it in that, like, overly dramatic way? No, but oh, I didn’t even think of addressing the emotion of guilt, or, you know, some of these emotions that that ChatGPT helped come up with, but at the end of the day, you know, it’s not going to write start to finish a piece of, you know, a copy, that is that like it that you’re gonna want to copy and paste it just, you know, again, it’s a great tool. And so, I think there’s an ever-rising premium right now on people who actually understand marketing and copywriting so that they can use those tools to get great output. And, you know, that’s always the way I’ve taught copywriting. You know, I’ve never, I’ve never sold templates I’ve never sold, like, for me, it’s not about understanding the exact, you know, wording, it’s about understanding why you’re using that wording, and understanding the big picture and then applying it in a in a certain sequence that allows you to be persuasive, and all of that. So, you know, the nuts, the nuts and bolts of it. I think AI is great. I’m really excited to see where it goes. I think it’s going to be revolutionary for businesses and in a lot of different ways, not just content generation, but I don’t see it replacing, you know, strategic, creative problem solvers, anytime in the near future. Can’t say what’s going to happen after that, you know? Yeah, well, that’s, I think it’s a spot on a breakdown, because I’ve seen members of my team, who were, there were like, capable, but doing okay, getting some things done getting delayed, and some other things really transform and just become machines, with the help of ChatGPT, just because of the brainstorming feature just because of being able to automate certain things, a lot of the time-consuming craps, like formatting a transcript. Right now, you don’t have to do that by hand, all that stuff, right. It’s really, really cool. 

28:55

And I’m definitely with you in the category of people that are basically in love with it, and use it as a good as a really smart intern, or something. Or assistant. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I even used it before you. I even used it to create a comic book for my kids like, dialogue and everything. So, the artists, the artists Drew, like the images, but all the dialogue between all the characters, the panels, and everything else. It’s all been done with ChatGPT. And that was like the first version back when back when just started maybe a month after he got released. And now it’s much better. And obviously, we are better at using it because ChatGPT will only be as really good as you are giving us commands, which is something only a person would like a team of people working for them. And the experience of running a team can truly be appreciated because sometimes you think you’re building a protocol. It’s like, oh, it’s obvious and easy to follow. And then and then your pupils start executing and you discover there’s like 15 gaps and missing instructions. I think the way I like to think of ChatGPT is that it’s such a great shortcut.

30:00

but a shortcut is only a shortcut if you know where you’re going. And I think a slippery slope that a lot of people need to be careful about is they learn to trust. I’m gonna say ChatGPT. But it’s just AI in general, more than they trust themselves. And I’ve seen this happen before where someone is customer profiling. And they know their customer. I mean, they’ve worked with their customers for years, they know their customers, but then they put in some prompts into ChatGPT and ChatGPT, T starts going into a direction that’s maybe 30 degrees off of like, actually what the customer cares about. And it’s like, oh, I’ve never thought of that before. And oh, okay, great, let’s use it. But you want to be careful that every piece of information that you’re generating, you’re asking yourself, Is this actually relevant, or not? You know, and then there’s the whole conversation, which a lot of my community is unaware of, because a lot of my community are people who want to get into copywriting. And they hear about ChatGPT. And first of all, they’re scared. And then second of all, they don’t understand that, by default, it’s not connected to the internet. And they’re using it to do quantitative research. And they’re not realizing that that source, it just made up. And so, like really getting Oh, that’s I think that’s kind of been fixed in a bit because Bart, they introduced the fact checking, I believe.

31:24

That is so needed, because it’s just like, like, where did that stop come from? And so having to fact check everything. Obviously, there are ways to web enable ChatGPT and get more accurate information. But I just think it’s important that people don’t forget that they have original ideas to bring to the table. One of my students said something the other day, which really stuck with me, he said, AI will never have a spontaneously creative idea. Like you know, when you’re an entrepreneur and you’re writing or you’re like in the shower, or you’re cooking, and you listen to podcasts, and all of a sudden you just have this idea that’s like, oh my God, that’s it like me coming up with a name for coffee posse. You know, like, I think you have to remember that, you know, AI is just a generative model. Anyone you talk about that you almost like become more mellow. It’s like you oh romanticize the moment when it happened. Yeah, totally.

32:15

And so yeah, it’s just it’s, I think it’s, it’s a great tool. And I think people need to use it wisely. Like anything, like any tool, you know, like it. And so, it’s exciting. I’m curious to see where it goes. And, you know, I’m gonna say that I disagree with your student who said that, I was interviewing somebody as well, who quoted Noam Chomsky, who I never really followed or listened to. But Noam Chomsky said something like that, that ChatGPT Can’t really do what a human can do from a creativity standpoint. But I’ve seen ChatGPT combine two completely random ideas into something that’s really cool. And it’s, I mean, let’s say that you’re sitting is right, and it can’t do what a human can do. But it can still do 99% 95% of most of what humans do, even if it itself does not understand what it does.

33:07

And the moments like when these amazing ideas show up seemingly out of nowhere, I think they come from, again, I couldn’t be completely off about this. I don’t have any scientific proof to back this up. But I think they come from associations that don’t happen at the moment, because they are an associative sort of creature, right? Yeah, yeah. But I agree 100%. Like, I don’t think there’s any such thing as, like, a brand-new idea. But I guess what I think of when I think of creativity, and this is like, this is why a funny conversation is such a human conversation that we’re having, because it’s like, so subjective, like what is creativity, I don’t know. But the way that I think of creativity is taking two seemingly unrelated ideas, and putting them together in a way that makes perfect sense. And that’s the thing that I feel like, you know, ChatGPT at least in my experience of using it, it’s so literal, like so I’ll give you an example. Like, my brand archetype is the rebel and the Outlaw. 

34:17

So, my content is very in the way that I write, I use words and language that are very like that, and follow that kind of rebellious tone. Like I use swear words, I use really edgy language. But then the other side of that, is this sort of empathetic, I know what you’re going through and like we’re in this together. And I find that like ChatGPT is really good at writing in like, let’s say one way which is like, Oh, wait with compassion, but then like a side of edginess, that’s, it kind of loses the nuanced, the nuanced, conversational, but also like, how it’s just it’s hard to explain, but that to me, it’s, it’s like it’s so good at starting, and then it’s important for you to be able to take it over the finish line and make sure that you’re not lose.

35:00

Think like your brand voice and the things that actually you’re trying to communicate in the process. Does that make sense? Did you ever do very much? And because you’re such a good copywriter you it’s something you can’t ignore. Right? And that’s exactly it like I, I realized that not many people would probably lay awake at night. Yeah, just right, right you can be good is not good enough for you? It has to be just right. So, question, what I’ve done with my ChatGPT on many occasions for different purposes is I would actually give it a prompt that I use, I give it about 1000 words of my copy. And then I say analyze this style. Yes. And then it’ll go and be like, give me like six or eight bullet points. Oh, it’s conversational. use metaphors, you tell stories, whatever, like, whatever the one that particular piece. And then I asked you to write in that style. Most of the time, it’s like, for me, it’s like 90%. Good. Have you ever tried something?

36:00

In one way, it’s kind of a similar thing. And I thought this was so genius. The same student who had the app before shared it. We did training last week on how to use AI to write headlines. And he shared this idea that I’m going to. I can’t remember the name of the book, where he got this idea from, but you might know if I said that, you know, looking to tabloid headlines as an inspiration for writing. And so, I’ve heard that advice from, like, many So, copywriting courses. Exactly. And they do so, work we like, we know that the tabloids, you know, despite how trashy they are, we’re like, it’s like, we love the trash. And so, what he did, and it was similar. Give me a trash raccoon. Now, that’s a brand.

36:54

You could take a tableau ID Yeah, take this tabloid headline, as ChatGPT to analyze why it’s powerful. And then feed it and go, okay, now using that same those same concepts, write me a headline, that is for this customer, you know, Avatar, selling this type of product, and it actually pumped out, you know, again, not copy paste word for word type of headlines, but like really great ideas that I was like, Oh, that’s so cool. So, I do think that that is where it’s really good at okay analyzing and mirroring. And I think anytime you can use that strategy, and that sort of prompt sequence, I think, I think you’re gonna get better results, obviously, than if you’re just asking it to write you a great headline, you know, what I most appreciate about ChatGPT in and I’ll get, I’ll also be asking a question about ChatGPT, about the personal uses of ChatGPT. Within the professional sense. More often than not, I appreciate that I don’t have to start from scratch anymore. Like almost any time, like I was sitting down to create a curriculum outline for a new program that we launched, for a technical component, about email, sending tools, and it’s the component that actually bores me to death. And I’m not really passionate about talking about how to load a broadcast or do a segue, right.

38:20

But I still had to build out a curriculum for one of our coaches to go record it. And I was sitting there literally drawing a blank until I went, wait a second, I went into ChatGPT. And I said, Are you familiar with Active Campaign? Yes, Active Campaign is a tool that does blah, blah, blah, cool. Give me a thorough, you know, curriculum outline with headlines and bullet points for each headline, you know, for a beginner to teach them how to use the technical aspects of software. And it gave me a bunch, right, a really long outline with lots of like, basic things that advanced things. So, I just picked a pinchos what I needed, maybe shifted some stuff around and Bam, you got yourself an outline. Yeah, if I didn’t have ChatGPT, I’d be thinking about an outline for three days and procrastinating and toning down to do within weight, you know, standing up going upstairs, getting a a cup of tea coming back, you know, getting distracted to go chat with somebody come back, and it would it would have been a nightmare. And this was so easy to do. Yeah, I think one of the things that that I think it’s the greatest for is exactly what you said it removes that like blank page, you know, blinking cursor moment, and it takes away anybody’s excuse to not get started because now anybody is like okay, hey, you’re not the greatest writer. You have a hard time like you know, sitting down to focus when you’re creating an outline or whatever, like this is the greatest freaking place to start ever. And then it allows you to spend more of your time on things like the really big needle mover stuff like, you know, my friend stuff in Georgia who is a great copywriter and has a copywriting community. 

40:00

He kind of talks about how it takes the mundane type of tasks off your plate so that you can have higher level creative functioning, which I actually think is the best way to think about it. It’s like, yeah, it takes off that annoying stuff that is super time consuming. But like, truly, you know, someone who could go read a bunch of sources, you know, for you, or an assistant could probably do it for you. And then that that allows you to be like, okay, now that I have this outline, like, how am I going to make this like a super great program? And how am I going to like, push it over the finish line? And how am I going to market it in a way that’s really powerful and speaks to my audience? And so, I 100% agree with you. I think that that’s a really good thing. Yeah. You know, sometimes, like, all you really need is just a new frame of looking at something to completely change your relationship to whatever you’re looking at. Yeah, I was trying to convince a buddy of mine who’s an internet marketer in the biz op space. And he basically kind of likes an herb, so he would like not to get out of the house for three months at a time. And every now and again, he will show up around my area, and you’d like, hey, I’m in town for two hours, you want to grab a coffee. So, we go grab a coffee in this Israeli coffee shop. And we sit down and ChatGPT by then is like six months? It’s been out. And I was like, you know, I know. I know, you code. No, you’re right, copy. 

41:23

Tell me what you think of ChatGPT is like ChatGPT, who never used it? No. So I show ChatGPT. And he brushes it off.

41:28

Three months later, we met again, he’s still not using ChatGPT. He said, I played around with it. I don’t understand anything. Again, he’s a technical guy. He’s a copywriter, he writes code, and he writes copy. And he understands marketing is a very shrewd business. And then what I’ve done is I know that, you know, he’s overweight, always been overweight. And every now and again, he’ll go on, like a fasting routine when he would fast for three days and eat for two days and or do something else, go to the gym, stop going to the gym. So, he’s always struggling with that issue. And I said, you know what, here’s an example. Do you have any dietary restrictions? It’s like, Yeah, I can’t eat this. I don’t like eating that. Okay. Do you know how many calories a day you need to consume to lose weight? Yeah, approximately, like 1500 calories, maybe 1300. Just so there’s a difference. Okay, cool. So, what if we do this, I get ChatGPT. And I say, build me a meal plan that includes these products, does not include those products, give me portion sizes, meals, etc. Make sure it’s no more than 1300 calories a day, make sure it also includes chocolate and snacks and stuff like that. And he and I gave him the phone and said hit submit. And so, he’s watching ChatGPT create like a full-blown meal plan. And that got him.

42:42

I just got to like it. He got hooked on ChatGPT. I did the same thing with a buddy of mine who is a lawyer who specializes in creating contracts and in all kinds of stuff that lawyers probably understand, I don’t understand it. And, you know, he at first had the same reaction, no, it’s not for me, it can do what I can. It might be kind of good. 50% But I’ll have to work on it anyway, until, you know, he was working on it like an anti-money laundering protocol that a company needs to have in order to transact internationally with some conglomerate. And then he came to me and he’s like, okay, I need this. And he likes, okay, cool. So, what I do is I take my assistant from Africa.

43:28

I say, talk to us, Elson, and, you know, she’ll help you out. She’s a master at ChatGPT. So, he just tells her what she what he needs. And she goes on to build them a set of 20 documents over the course of two days about anti money laundering laws everywhere. And she has zero legal knowledge. And he says, wow, this is actually 80% Good. I can use it, like I think that he’s just blown away. So now he’s like, in LA. Yeah. And I think I think that’s the 80%, you know, and then having him back check in that sort of thing that reminded me of this famous, I don’t know if it’s famous, but a lawyer told me about it. My lawyer we were chatting with. I ran into him at an event and, and we were talking about AI and this was right after AI kind of came out like within a few months after ChatGPT came out.

44:22

And he was saying how there was this legal assistant or articling student or something at a firm who, you know, needed to prepare some documents and some case work for you know, her firm pretty last minute, she used ChatGPT And it was referencing like precedent cases that never ever happened. And like obviously, she didn’t know that but just sort of made it up and was like, oh, this seems legit. And she submitted it and they’re like, these cases don’t exist. And so, it’s like, okay, knowing that, you know, AI can oh also just completely make stuff up. And so, I think it’s really like, at least the way that I use it now is it’s really good for stuff like protocols and anywhere where there’s sort of this like wealth of knowledge to be able to, to pull from but then making sure that anything that that is sourced or referenced making sure that it’s actually real and true. No, you’re absolutely right. And, you know, I think ChatGPT Does that. Michael same was explained in that mastermind where we met, you know, he said, just, it just wants to please, you basically just wanted the dog. It’s like, okay, I’ll just tell you about this case from 1941 in here.

45:38

Right, let’s shift away from marketing for a second. Okay. Tell us: Do you use it? Do you ever use ChatGPT? Or AI in personal life? And if so? No, I don’t like not even to plan a trip or build an exercise plan, or no?

46:01

Yeah, I know, I could. And maybe I’m just one of those people that like, I want the next personal trainer, then I do for professionals. Yeah, I think I think what I’ve seen done really well. And I’ve never done this, but a lot of my students have it like, you get an email from a client. And it’s like, you know, a red flag, like pushing boundaries, like, you know, I need this by tomorrow, like, and they use it to like, right, they’re like, how do I write this in a way where I’m basically saying no, but in a way that’s, like, polite and respectful.

46:36

And it’s like, perfect at that, you know, it’s like, yeah, thank you so much. I’m gonna have to politely like a no. And I’m like, that’s a genius. way to do it, too. Yeah, planning a trip is actually you put that idea in my head just now if I probably would use it for that. Because yeah, that’s a lot. And I’m so last minute when it comes to planning. Like, I think a lot of entrepreneurs are like, I booked the flights, I booked the hotel. And then like three days before, I’m like, can we make dinner reservations? Like, what are we going to do? You know, so like, knowing like, hey, I’m going to be spending a week in Paris. You know, what, what should I see? Or what should I do?

47:12

You know, I don’t know, I should probably be asking you like, what are the ways that you use it personally, because then maybe you’ll give me some ideas. To be honest, I just, I just either work all the time, or I’m like closing my computer off this. I want to be out in the forest. Like, with my dogs. I feel like anytime I’m not working, I’m not on my computer. I don’t do a lot of personal stuff. Well, cool, well, right, well listed under drugs. So, I don’t do drugs.

47:36

Which, again, for the purposes of this show, it’s a good thing, but in some other contexts might be a bad thing. So let me share a few examples of how I use my personal life. Well, obviously, you’ve seen the comic book thing that I’ve done. But I’ve been writing comic books for myself, for my daughter, especially for my daughter. I haven’t actually written any for my son yet. Because I wanted to create a few stories that instill different ideas.

48:00

For example, the first one that I wrote, I don’t have it here, but I do have the cover. It’s cold, Erica and the birds. And she’s a super Heckle. Yeah, I was actually just thinking that like really empowering little girls’ superheroes. Like, that’s the comic books that we need. Yeah, so that one, but it took me a year to get that project done. Because I kept procrastinating. I didn’t know what I was doing. So, but girls’ I’m very proud of that, because I noticed that my daughter just doesn’t. So as a kid growing up when I would see Superman, Batman or any other superheroes, I would really resonate with them. And I could imagine myself in that suit or with that cape, and it really inspired me.

48:46

And my daughter did not register the same like, I think I once I told her like, hey, you know, the Avengers are out. Are you excited to see Ironman? Because I’m a big fan. And she’s like, Yeah, okay. It’s like, oh, and then and then I noticed that when Miss Marvel came out, or Captain Marvel came out, he was really excited to see that I was like, oh, I see. So, she needs female superheroes Because apparently, being a girl, just like if you’re a boy, right? You’re breaking the world into boys and girls. And whatever girls apply to girls, whatever boys apply to boys. It’s like my son, you know, we really wanted for him to do like, now these soccer players, they tend to have like, this pony thing where you like your what’s up with that? I really Oh, I love it. My wife goes through. So, we wanted our son’s habit and she would refuse anytime would try because he’s like, no long hair for girls. Right? So, we had to back up.

49:47

No, seriously, like, we eventually figured it out. But my point being is that I use it for ideas on how to communicate to my kids a lot. Because let’s say let’s say Catch my daughter on tick tock. One day I actually got a message from a best friend. And he said, hey, if I see something that Eric is doing on tick tock, do you want me to tell you? Or do you want me to just keep it to myself? I said, no, no, I want you to tell him because I should know. And he’s like, well, I just watched the video that she recorded out of her bathroom.

50:23

And she was like, talking about a vagina or something. And she’s like, 10 of the time. So first, I did a few breathing exercises and vegetables and, and then I really wanted to have a conversation with her about like, the boundaries for tick tock, and for right, basically, I went to church with Tina and said, hey, this happened. How can I explain to a 10-year-old that this is not cool? And can you use a story? Because I believe storytelling is so powerful. I just Oh, yeah, that’s a whole other podcast we could talk about.

50:57

What are you talking about? Yeah. So, 10-year-old it, you know, gave me a story. And my daughter understood all of a sudden. I definitely use it with my friends and family. So, a birthday song, a poem. Maybe? I remember it. So, this past birthday that I had in August. We were in an escape room. Have you ever been to Toronto? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You’ve been to Castle Loma? No. It’s big, it’s like the closest thing to a castle we got here. Got is like a really rich British guy used to live here for a long, long time ago, but they made it. Wow, cool. So, in that thing, there’s the museum. And there’s a bunch of Escape Rooms ever done in Scraper. Before? Nope. They give me anxiety thinking about escape. You should totally do an escape. I should because I do love mysteries and solving problems. But okay. They’re, they’re really well, it’s like, let me get this straight. I’m gonna be trapped in a room with people. That sounds like hell to me. Like no, thank you.

52:09

Typical copywriter interviews. Yeah, seriously, like I’m literally in the middle of nowhere in the woods right now. Yeah, like, I know that anyway. All right. So, I’m inviting everybody to do an escape from but I don’t want to tell them it’s an escape from because I know if I would say that it is. I do have lots of introverted friends and they will bail on me to the show. I asked it to write like an invitation without revealing that’s an escape from but hinting at it using language, which it did well. And then I asked them to write it in 18th century English. But he’s got aristocratic English. Yeah, I dropped him this message, it gets good feedback. You know, it’s fun. So, I use the ones I like. That’s another use case. Oh, that’s it. I love it like that. i That’s such a good you’re putting ideas in my head now about how to use it for personal fun stuff like that sounds really. And it’s fun to as a copywriter, you get to play with words. And I don’t know, I don’t know if you get off on that. But like, I totally geek out on like, finding the right, phrase length, word, etymology to like understanding where we are, it’s kind of like I love it. But even just converting to, you know, 18th century English like to know how to do that. Like, I would probably just throw in a bunch of vows, and hope for the best. But to be like, hey, translate this and it would probably do a pretty good job. I think that’s so smart. Oh, it’s pretty good. It really does a great job of like, following instructions when it comes to style. Have you ever tried taking your copy? And asking ChatGPT to rewrite it as if it’s like, does somebody sound like a famous writer or a copywriter? Like her style? You know, Stephen King style? Yeah, I think it’s easier for really, like very, because when I say, you know, because a lot of my students will do this, they’ll be like, write this and Alex Pitoni style. And it’s almost comical, like it, it’s a lot of likes, hey, their boss babes. And I’ve never in my life said those words.

54:12

So, I think it tries but I think in terms of Stephen King, which I don’t know if you know, there’s actually a huge lawsuit right now against open AI because, you know, Stephen King and the writers. They’re like, you’re using our books to train anyway. There’s such specific, there’s such specific style and words and it’s a lot more noticeable, or at least being able to say, yeah, that’s definitely in Stephen King style versus using, let’s say, a copywriter where it might be like, you know, 50% different for me.

54:47

But it’s, I mean, to me that it’s so fascinating that it even knows how to do that. You know, it’s wild. Yeah. And what is even more fascinating to me personally, and I, I only understood that like a month ago, when a really smart friend explained it to me, like it doesn’t actually understand it doesn’t actually know. Like, it was loaded with information, that one plus one equals two. Right? But it doesn’t actually know that.

55:15

Right? Yeah. It’s like a parrot that repeats it. Yeah, yeah. And that’s accurate. Like, what helps me kind of understand that is knowing it’s just a predictive, general generative model of like when this happens, and then this happens. This is what comes next. And like, the perfect example of that is, is how there’s like a, there was a Stanford study recently about AI hallucinations, about how,

55:41

how people are treating it. Like they would treat Google in the sense that they’re assuming all the information is accurate. And like they, they did a math problem where, you know, simple, simple math problems, the accuracy used to be like 98%, because if you think about it, the people who trained AI in the beginning were all like, you know, smart, educated technologists. And now everybody’s using it, and the whole world is training for it. And you know, the same simple math problem was only 2% accurate after that, and that’s when you realize, like, Wait, it’s not a calculator. It’s a predictive model based on all of the information it is accessing, and all of the people training it. And so, it’s your So, way. So, are you saying the ChatGPT got dumber?

56:33

I am not saying it. But scientists. If you if you actually Google I mean, if anyone’s interested in reading about it, AI hallucinations Stanford study? They are saying that potentially temporarily, I’m guessing, because obviously the era is only going to continue to get smarter. That when it was made accessible to the masses of people, and there was a lot more input and a lot, a lot more data. And a lot of it was not accurate. Let’s say that. Yeah, it did get dumber for a bit. And maybe it still is. I don’t know. I can’t speak to that. But you can research it.

57:18

I rely on it way too much. Well, exactly, exactly. And then it’s like, Wait, am I getting dumber? Now? Wait, what’s happening? No, no, we will. I mean, we are very much like creatures of habit. As soon as a habit is formed, it’s formed. Like, if we got our phone, that’s now an extension of the brain. And obviously, ChatGPT is a further extension of the brain, the more we use it, it’s just going to be ridiculous. But I still look forward to the world. Like, again, as an example. One thing that enables me to do right now is to choose to chat with a friend very effectively, in a different language. Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah. Like I actually, you know, went in and started using it, I said, you know, I want you to translate what I asked what I type into a slang in a language, not just like, try to, like, use a dictionary on Google Translate is, is very challenging, even to this day, it’s been around for so long, but it’s still not there. And ChatGPT does such a good job of understanding the context of what I’m trying to say that all I have to do is just copy and paste the message after that. And, you know, it’s just one of the uses, like, for example, another use.

58:33

Did you ever use it to do cell therapy? No, but I do know, I do know, some therapists that are creating some pretty cool. Yeah, some pretty cool use cases for So, AI in, in therapy. So, it’s pretty good at that, like a kind of old thanks. I actually rank very high in ability to identify like, so I was like, I remember I was having a really bad day.

59:01

And I wrote it like this happened, this happened. And I feel this way. What’s going on? Why do I keep feeling this way? Whenever something like this happens, and it really is, break it down and use cognitive psychology of some kind. And it’s like, I don’t understand what you’re saying. Can you like, explain to me like, I’m five? It’s like, look, close your computer, go outside, get some exercise? Yeah, well, that was like the next thing. You know, it actually suggests actions you can take to but it’s like, your emotional wellbeing is kind of like a castle.

59:31

And when somebody says or does this, you feel like you’re being attacked. So, you build walls around the castle to protect yourself by acting this way. It’s like, oh, wow, that makes a lot of sense. I do act this way too, because I feel butthurt and because blah, blah, blah. So, it’s really cool. In addition, additionally, this is something sort of like work and life. Are you familiar with the saw original learn this

1:00:00

From Paris, helped me with his last name. The copywriter, the Greek copywriter from New York. Oh, I have no idea what lump profit was? No. So he was doing this thing for a charity for his brother or cousin. And he shared the concept of life traps or schemas, and how he applies it to copy they’ve ever heard that. I mean, I gather what you’re saying, but I know I’ve never specifically heard him talk about that. But basically, the theory is, and there’s a book, it’s called reinventing yourself, that explains it is that we all have a set of behaviors that we do over and over and over and over and over again, like a broken record, because of a particular mechanism or so, default loop that we’re stuck in. And there’s like 18 of them. And it could be something like, for example, mistrust, right? So, you definitely have mistrust, because you build your whole business around that. Which means, you know, you fundamentally have a hard time. Again, I’m assuming, based on what I’ve heard today, but have fundamentally had a hard time trusting people in certain contexts. At the very least, we know, it’s in the context of online marketing, you know, gurus etc. So that’s like a, that’s like a mechanism that then runs you. And that you can’t help but let it run you. And so, it’s really easy to trigger you. Right, right. As well, as you look at the world with those glasses, where like, anything that’s out of the just stepping a little bit outside of the lane, will appear to you as if you’re being mistreated ly. Now, I do happen to have that myself, because I was born in Ukraine and grew up in Israel. And you really have to be careful in those countries, you do get, you know, there’s a lot of mistrust. Let’s just put it this way. So, I can really resonate with that. And so, this is true for every human being.

1:02:04

Your life partner, your children, your business partner, your employees, your customers, everybody. So, I use it to kind of better understand the people in my life, people I care about. And so, I know how to better communicate with them in a way that they understand because it’s almost like you know, yours, let’s say we’re both speaking English, but I’m speaking say the British dialect and you’re speaking the Australian dialect, we’re having a hard time communicating, because we got different MC mechanisms that get in different lenses through which we see and experience life. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. So ChatGPT understands this, he has the database, right. 

1:02:49

And so, it helped me create this, which is an infographic now not just ChatGPT, also, my assistant salmson. But like, it helped me create basically a title, description and image and an example for each one that I could then copy and paste into a doc, send it to my sis and say, hey, can you go to Canva and put this into, into like, a thing, an infographic so I can have it for reference? I couldn’t do that before ChatGPT. I really couldn’t. I just wouldn’t sit down and then go through the book myself. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Love it. So many, so many great use cases. Anyway, I think it’s the longest running episode. There’s very, very fun talking to Yeah.

1:03:38

So, if somebody wants to eat, I’m not sure if you do any client work these days. But if somebody wants to learn from you, follow you. How are you for their copy projects? have been your world. Besides obviously, your YouTube channel title, I believe Alex Cattoni tarnishes my name. Yep.

1:03:57

Where else can eat, they go to eat, get into Yeah, the best place is copyposse.com I don’t take on clients that much anymore at all. But I do have a huge community of incredible writers. So, if you are looking for a writer, a writer, specifically a writer who understands copywriting and brand storytelling, which is a huge part of what I teach, you can find out more about that there as well as connect with me on all of my different social channels and things like that. There you go. Guys, look up Alex Cattoni on Social go to copy posse. That’s, that’s copyposse.com. And, Alex, it’s, I haven’t had this fun on an episode. Yay. That makes me happy here. Thank you so much for you, guys. It’s super fun.

1:04:47

Thank you for listening to the list building lifestyle. Get access to the previous episode’s transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also remember to claim your free copy of my bestselling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how I made millions with list building starting from scratch. Plus, I’ll give you $3,000 worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email, swipe files and traffic blueprints. Go to www.igorsbook.com now to claim your free package