How To Make Your Emails Stand Out In A Crowded Inbox With John Bejakovic

Hi I’m Igor Kheifets and this is the list building lifestyle. The podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my bestselling book, the list building lifestyle Confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus a $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now it’s time to claim your list building lifestyle. Welcome back to the list building lifestyle. I’m your host Igor Kheifets and today I’ve got a special guest. My friend John Bejakovic was an alias copywriter who constantly writes copy for seven and eight figure businesses in the supplement space, the real estate, and the real estate investing space. And today I’ve invited John to help us understand how to better use metaphors and analogies. And even parables in your copy in order to get more out of every email out of every sales letter out of every video and other every single piece of content you’re going to publish moving forward. So John, thank you so much for being here. I’m excited to have you in the Lisbon lifestyle.

01:32

Thanks. It’s great to be here.

01:35

Yeah, and it was quite a journey to get you on as well. Because I mean, you’re your true Nomad, aren’t you? You’ve been traveling a lot.

01:44

Yeah, it’s true. I’ve been. I’ve been moving around for the past couple of years. But the last couple of months, I’ve or more than a few months, I’ve been settled down. So now I’m in Barcelona in Spain. And I’m planning to stick around here for the foreseeable future. But I’ve had a good run of moving around and living the Nomad copywriter lifestyle.

02:05

Yeah, that’s what I really love about copywriting. You know, when I first came across copywriting, I was fascinated with the idea that you can put some words on paper, or in my case, it was already in the digital age. So you could put some words on a page, and people will send you money over the internet. So naturally, I gravitated to things like email marketing, because again, you send out an email to a bunch of people and money comes the other way. So that was always fascinating. And when I was finally able to make it work, you know, one of the first things that I did was, of course, travel. And it got even better when I was in a hotel in Czech Republic and I was doing some email work in the morning while my wife was out and about in the Old City in Prague. And I know there was money coming in. So I really couldn’t, couldn’t really understand how it works like even couldn’t believe like he had to pinch me. Because I was like, wow, look at that I’m on vacation. I’m going to a beautiful, gorgeous place. I’m free to roam. I like enjoying life and money’s coming in. And I don’t have to do any manual labor to get it. So how is it for you as now as a full time copywriter, a very accomplished successful copywriter who has often been mentioned by other copywriters in their newsletters? Somebody who’s obviously I would say, a role model, you know, as far as email copy is concerned, for sure, definitely. For me, I think your newsletter is one of the best out there right now. You know, at the top over there with people like Ben settle, and how is it like? How does it feel to just travel around the world? You know, be in a different city every month, and have money magically appear in your bank account by doing some writing. And, you know, basically, you know, have all this freedom, of freedom of choice, freedom of location, location, independent income, and stuff like that.

04:00

I mean, yeah, everything you said is absolutely true. So I feel like, you know, I come from a background where I was working in an office and I had an IT job. And honestly, for years, a lusted after the idea of having an income, where I didn’t have to sit in an office, I didn’t have to pretend to work. I didn’t have to come to the office in the morning and leave at night. It’s dark in the morning and it’s dark at night when I leave. So I feel like all of those things have been huge for me and it’s been a really big part of my life. And I got lucky with copywriting. I started out working for very low wage, and I built that up to the point where I was getting paid very high wage for the work that I was doing much more so than you know, I’m sure that any office job that I would have ever had. So that was very nice. And then I think this other thing that you mentioned was absolutely true, which is you know, in copywriting you can if you’re working as a freelance copywriter, you can get paid Did you know A sizeable fixed fee or wages, but then oftentimes, a lot of the businesses in this industry, they, they are willing to give you a share of the profits as well. Or, you know, once you learn about copywriting and marketing, you can start your own business, which is sort of what I’ve done with my newsletter, and my copywriting training. And, and yeah, it’s magical. It’s magical to be to write an email, send it out in the morning, and go about throughout your day, and then just get notifications, as you’re, you know, sitting outside and says, Okay, another few $100 rolled in, and you haven’t done anything since the morning. Yeah, it’s a great way.

05:40

Yeah, I call them the magic money, emails, I just love like, and I really think it’s the best job in the world. Obviously, maybe not as fulfilling as being a doctor and saving lives. But it’s still pretty badass. Because sometimes when the opportunity presents itself, you can just go, you know, you can just take advantage of it. Like, I just heard that my favorite soccer team, Man United, is going to be playing Barcelona as part of the European Cup. And, you know, so I’m planning to go on a trip. Soon, that will basically entail several games on the unlike Iran tour. And the only reason I can do that, without having to beg anyone for some vacation time and without having to worry about money is because of the whole magic, one email setup, you know, I got going on. So I want to, I want to actually focus on that, because out of all the people that I follow, and I follow quite a few, you have a very distinct style to how you communicate with your list and to the kinds of emails that you write, they appear meaty, but at the same time, they’re so easy to read, it seems like you’re able to make the point, you know, just kind of convey an idea or to present an insight in such an easy to understand way that doesn’t feel like my brain has to, you know, go up a gear to understand that which I can say about everyone, like a lot of times people get sort of they kind of stumble over there, their words and their ideas and their emails. But you have a very distinct style. Like I said, You You’ve definitely, and it’s hard to model. I think one of the key skills that I have developed in this industry is that I’ve been great at modeling, you know, sometimes it’s a flat out copying, but I have been pretty good at modeling people and with you. It’s so fascinating that I can seem to really nail down your system, I can seem, although I do know there is one like no copywriter who produces as much content as you just right out of nothing, right? There’s always a system. So I brought you on the show to be able to pick your brain about that. Because your use of metaphors, analogies , and stories, is freaking brilliant. I mean, it’s super high level. And although I’m pretty sure most people listening to this right now, didn’t you know subscribe to your newsletter yet, but they will by going to a John bejakovic.com with a j.com. Right? Or is it bejakovic.com?

08:15

Just Bejakovic yeah, there’s just my last name.com

08:17

Right. So its bejakovic.com guys recommend you go and subscribe to the newsletter. Just check it out, as well as the blog, by the way, your articles are superb. I think that’s how I stumbled into your blog in the first place. I was looking for some ideas about writing copy or and there was some contrarian article, some contrarian thought and I was like, wow, that’s refreshing. And this is what you do so well, man, you, you really take an idea that exists, right? And you make it sound refreshing and groundbreaking and unique. And to a point where I just want to go and share it with other people who can appreciate it. So how do we even go about coming up with this with this sort of content? Just walk us through just your thinking process?

09:07

Well, I think there’s multiple things going on, I think in terms of this specific thing that you just talked about, I think one really powerful thing to be able to do is to take ideas that are already out there and just present them in a new way that will finally get through to people that will finally get into their head. And I think you know this, the topic that we’re discussing today, you know, analogies and metaphors is probably the best way that I know to do that. So you know there’s a lot that goes into copy and there are a lot of things that I have tried doing and a lot of things that I still do. You know you said about modeling other people and that’s something that I’ve definitely done very heavily. I’ve looked at other copywriters. I’ve tried to break down what it is that they do have very consciously applied what they do in my own writing. And then if you do that over a period of time the things that they do become kind of second nature to you. And you also find ways to twist it and make it your own. And I’ve definitely done that. And it’s become, you know, like you say, maybe a unique style for me. But metaphors and analogies are things that I see the very best writers using. And yet, it’s not discussed very much, it’s not taught very much. I don’t feel like there are courses out there about it. And yet, you know, the most effective, the most successful people out there are very consciously using metaphors and analogies. And that’s what I modeled very, very conscious of myself, you know, and, and, again, I think the core thing is that it’s just a very effective way of persuading people of presenting an idea. So if you think of any idea that you might have, which might either be a tired idea that’s been shared 100 times before, and that people aren’t that interested in hearing, which might be a rather subtle idea and a complicated idea that you might, if you try to present it directly, it might be maybe difficult to get across. And I feel like if you just come up with a simple analogy, it can be very effective. So just as one example, last year, I was talking about, I wrote an email about how there are moments in life where you form a new belief, and that new belief creates a cascade of other beliefs. And so for example, I was talking about a friend that I had, who was the first person who mentioned to me that there is such a thing as Coronavirus. And that friend was a, you know, hypochondriac and he was always reading conspiracy news. And that thing influenced how I saw the entire pandemic following after that, but that was a story. But instead of just having that story, I introduced an analogy. And I talked about watershed beliefs, you know, the way that there is a mountain and that whether a single drop of water forms at the top of that mountain and runs either the left side or the right side, and then it picks up more and becomes a little bit of a stream. And at the beginning, it’s very easy to change the course of that little drop of water. But once it becomes kind of a gushing river of belief, further down the mountain, it becomes very hard to either stop it or change it or redirect it. And, I got a lot of response to that email from a lot of people who maybe would have disagreed with me, and who would have disliked that I was talking about Coronavirus, and COVID. And all of that stuff. And I feel like this is a great example of how, you know, one simple clear image in people’s minds, which is not just an image of what you’re talking about, which is an analogy, it creates this moment of insight and understanding in people’s heads, which is very different from any kind of other type of persuasion. And so, in many situations, if I find that I’m saying something, which is a little bit boring, a little bit playing a little bit predictable, or just a little bit complicated, I will consciously go in and say, Okay, this sucks, how can I make it better? And in nine cases out of 10? The answer to how to make it better is to say, Oh, what is this similar to? What is this? Like? How can I compare this to something entirely different? Where people will, will form that connection in their minds and say, Okay, I see how those two things are similar. And once that happens, it’s a very powerful emotion that forms in people’s heads, and it kind of colors, the rest of colors, and the rest of your message and makes it much more persuasive. And like you said, it makes it so that people feel this moment of insight where they actually want to share your message with other people. And that’s definitely happened, in my case, you know, I’ve noticed, I’ve had my emails shared with people, people have gone and shared them in groups or forward on demand. And oftentimes, that’s because I had some novel analogy that I’m sharing.

13:50

Yeah. And I think that’s a really big point that’s been overlooked. I’m a parent, and I have two kids. And recently, I met up with this guy, he’s an Israeli guy who recently moved to Toronto, and he’s a certified genius. And he likes it, he can actually go into a completely new field, spend about 20 hours in it, and get as knowledgeable in it as somebody who spent, like, 5000 hours in that field, it’s pretty incredible. Like his ability to learn and to grasp is so it’s so incredible. And so this guy actually taught me something. He taught me, how do you how do you transfer talents or skills from one area, or nature industry into another is you get really, really good at basically filling the blanks on the statement that says, this is sort of like, or this is kind of like, right, so like, if you’re good at music, you can actually transfer those music skills over to karate. If you can find those analogies and say, Well, maybe you know, my punch with my right arm is kind of like this note and you know, punching you know with my left arm into the stomach is kind of like this note. So if you do this combo on the piano, this is how you do the combo with your punches or something. And you know, this is a totally different way of thinking, which I think no one teaches us. They don’t especially teach it in school, which I find to be horrendous. Like, I have a big issue with the school system in general, I don’t think the school teaches us to be smarter. I think it just conditions us to follow the rules and to be kind of like soldiers. So at home, I do a lot of extra work with my kids. And one thing I’ve been doing more and more with my daughter is trying to get her into that mind frame of, if she’s struggling to understand something, how can we make it sound familiar? It’s a technique called tastes like chicken, right? So it’s kind of like, it tastes like chicken that’s familiar. And the moment you can do that, and your brain starts grasping onto, you know, these are the similar ideas. And it becomes very easy to get into a new space and start feeling comfortable very quickly. And as a copywriter. What we’re doing as copywriters is we’re actually selling ideas before we’re selling products. So if somebody’s already sold on an idea or a concept, and we can grasp onto that concept, I think we can quite easily help them bridge that gap. And really bind to this new idea. I don’t remember what the book is called, I think it’s called the 16 word sales letter or something like that, where the author talks about the mechanism, where you kind of have to explain what the mechanism is. But it has to sound familiar and like it has to sound new, but also familiar enough for it to make sense, right. And I think that’s what you’re doing really, really well with your emails. Now. Maybe you can, maybe you can walk us through some additional examples of some of the emails you wrote, or so we can, you know, get deeper into your thinking process, maybe, you know, by the time we’re done here, our listeners can actually come up with a few ideas themselves.

16:58

Sure. So I mean, the problem, I think, with teaching metaphors or analogies is that oftentimes, it seems like there’s very little you can tell people besides, okay, take two unlike things and compare them. But there are a few things that I can definitely point out that make for a good analogy or for a bad analogy. And so actually, now that you were talking, I was thinking about that, you were saying how, you know, you’re critical of the school system. And I very much agree, that was my entire experience going through school. And, and at some point, I actually wrote an email about this, where I was talking about, you know, how I’m critical of the school system. And, and I remember I, in some ways, I made the analogy of like, basically saying, like, yeah, you know, it’s like, school is like prison for kids. And that’s something that you would never do people advertise this thing, you know, like, oh, you know, open, when you have, like, an open school day, or whatever it’s called, like, when your, your parents are allowed to come in and see the school be like, Yeah, you know, look at the way we can take your kids and, you know, force them to do the things that we want, and don’t allow them to escape until a certain hour. And so that’s an analogy. And I feel like in that context, there was a good analogy. But it brings up a good point that an analogy has to do several things. And one of them is that it has to have the right kind of emotional tone, right? And it feels like comparing school and prison, it has a lot of similarities, at least to me. But if you are trying to sell for example, you know, your school, that’s definitely not an analogy that you ever want to make for parents, you know, parents, even though on some level, they might want to think like, well, I want to make sure that my kids are learning discipline, and that they’re going to be contained and safe for those eight hours. They would never want to hear the analogy. Well, it’s just like prison. You know, like, if you know what prison is like, our school is just like that, and the food is just as bad.

18:56

The school is a prison for kids is a great analogy for selling your home study. Homeschooling program, right? Yeah. Because since The Rise of Cobra, there’s been a lot of that. I mean, obviously, it existed before, but like there’s been a spike. And I think I think that’s perfect. I think anyone who’s got a homeschooling platform, or homeschooling curriculum, they should totally just steal this phrase. And guys, if you’re actually listening, and you do have a program like that, and you are planning to steal this, please contact John and send him some royalties just don’t be don’t be a douchebag. So, three things you said first, emotional tone, makes perfect sense. Number two,

19:35

Well, a second thing that I think is really crucial is that it’s something that people can either that’s clear, right so that’s familiar to people that has the people can understand very easily at least the thing you’re talking about or as well as the connection to the thing you’re trying to illustrate. So like in prison and school is one example. But another example that I might give is. So the good thing about analogies and metaphors is that you can combine them with your own personal stories or with pop culture illustrations. And so this is something I’ve done in my own emails. And as one example of something that’s clear, or where people can draw the connection is, I had an email where I used a scene from Silence of the Lambs. You know, it’s this movie about Hannibal Lecter the serial killer, and there is an FBI agent, Clarice Starling. And she has to go into the prison to talk to the serial killer, right. And there’s a, there’s the beginning of the movie, she goes in, she builds a little bit of rapport, she kind of likes talking to the guy makes him feel smart. He’s very, very smart. He’s a real genius. And he’s studying her very closely. And so she’s kind of being very different in that situation. And then, once she feels she’s done enough to kind of point him over. She says something like, oh, and now Dr. Electra, maybe you can use that great mind of yours. And that great memory to help me with my case, right. And he takes a moment, and just kind of tilts his head. And he said, that won’t do at all, you know. And he’s basically making fun of everything she had done up to that point. And all the work she had put in to kind of try to build rapport with him. And now she’s very ham handedly switching into this kind of task. Basically, she’s trying to sell me something. And I drew the analogy between that, which I think is a very clear scene that probably a lot of people have seen. And it made the analogy between that and how people sell online. Right. And I said, people will often tell a story, a personal story, they’ll go through the entire story. And then they’ll say, oh, and by the way, that’s just how my program works. And then they’ll get into their pitch. And I feel like I definitely know I’ve had the experience where I read an interesting story, which is a personal story that somebody’s a marketer, or a copywriter selling. And in one second, it switches into, you know, the sales pitch. And that brings me to my new offer. And my initial reaction always is like, oh, come on, you gotta be kidding me. This, I can’t believe this is so like, so ham handed and so unrelated. And so my email was an analogy between those two things. And I told people, okay, like, and if you want to find out how you don’t get caught in this trap, then whatever, and then I had some offer for them. But again, it was that analogy, anything that illustrates the second point, which is that an analogy, the beginning part of the analogy, or kind of the, the source has to be something that people understand has to be something that’s familiar to people. And, and the connection to what it is that you’re trying to explain has to be clear. So you have to draw it out for people, so they understand it. And then the third thing that really has happened is that has to be novel, right? An analogy has to be novel in order to be effective. And I think the best example of that that I can think of isn’t will certainly my own. But I mean, again, my experiences mostly are from email. But the best example of a novel analogy that I can give you is from a very successful sales letter, which was the sales letter that launched Stansbury press, and I don’t know if you know what stands very, but it was this offshoot of agora, and I think maybe a year or two ago, it’s sold for over a billion dollars. So it’s a big, big business. And it basically got started with a sales letter. And the sales letter said, there’s a new railroad across America, and it’s making some people very rich, right. And it was basically talking about whatever it was an analogy between, between how, in the 19th century people were laying down railroad tracks across the US and how this led to the rise of a new breed of very rich people in the US these like railroad barons, and this sales letter came out in the 90s, where in a lot of the, like IT infrastructure was being laid down in across the US. And they were saying, Okay, if you invest now, you could just get as rich as a robber baron in the 19th century. And so, basically, it was saying, there is a money making opportunity. And it’s like the railroad, right. And once they explain it to you, your brain says, like, wow, I would never have seen that. But it makes so much sense. And that’s very novel. So the idea of a money making opportunity, or even the idea of investing in it stocks or telecom stocks, that’s not new. The RailRiders railroad is not new. But putting those two things together is very new. And I think you can compare it to maybe a different analogy, which is not even analogy anymore. It’s just the cliché, which is to say, this money making opportunity is a goldmine, right? Once upon a time, it was a goldmine. might have been an analogy for a money making opportunity, you can sail just the same way you can go into a hole and bring up all the gold that you want, whenever you want. The same is true today with whatever, you know, some money making opportunity. But today that analogy has been made so many times that nobody’s going to have that aha moment in their head, that comparison is not new anymore. It’s not a novel. And so when you are choosing which two things to compare, you have to make sure that maybe you don’t have to be the first person, but you can’t be the 50th person to make that same comparison. So, you know, novel, simple to understand. And, and yeah, so those are kind of the key things that go into an effective analogy.

25:43

Yeah, I love it. Because I’m a big movie buff, and TV show buff, like my wife and I, in spite of being able to do pretty much whatever, like travel and stuff, we actually end up spending a lot of time in front of the TV, and you know, in the movie theaters and stuff, just watching lots of content. So for someone like me, who’s got tons of different movie scenes, in his mind constantly playing them repeat? I think the example you gave was perfect. I remember one more by Ben subtle, which he loves to give and he’s in his newsletter and emails about Dark Knight Rises. So it’s the third Batman movie with Christian Bale, where is the beginning, there’s this villain Bane, right? So this big guy really terrorizing Gotham, as usual. And there’s some other powerful monsters, they’re hiring him to do something for them. And he didn’t do it. And so they’re having this conversation and the monster, you know, approach has been in the monsters much shorter than being so he’s looking up at him, but he’s treating him like Bane is beneath him. And he’s like, why don’t you do it. And Bain is like, I didn’t like it, I didn’t want to, and the monster is like, but we paid you a lot of money. And Bain kind of picks the guy up, you know, almost with one hand. And he’s like, and you think this gives you power over me, you know. And the whole analogy is to say that even if a client is paying you money, or even if you’ve got someone in your business that’s financially like it contributing to your wellbeing, it doesn’t mean they own you. And it doesn’t mean like you have to do everything that they’re saying. And therefore give away your power like that, like money alone doesn’t give people the power over you. And I think that was a brilliant analogy. Because of the scene as well, like he chose a really cool scene from that movie, that movie is actually full of great scenes, I mean, the Dark Knight as well, like the second part with, with the Joker, with the Keith Ledger Joker, that that’s also full of like analogies that you can use. So I think that’s, that’s brilliant. And the third point you’re making, that has to be novel, is that it’s also big. I think it’s probably more important today than ever before, because of how quickly we get bored with things. Like it has to at least sound new, like there’s very few things that are truly new under the sun. Even a lot of the things that are created today, just like you said, it’s just a mix of two existing ideas. Right. So, you know, self-driving cars, for example. You know, it’s a novelty, but essentially, like, idea wise, it’s actually not new. It’s, it’s, it’s an it’s a like, you know, say a plane had that for a long time. It’s just as being transferred over to the car. So I think that’s brilliant, the whole a real rolled across America promotion, right, it talks about I believe, fiber optics cable or something. That’s what the real role, you know, that’s the physical element of that promotion. When I when I was studying it, and I think I studied like a year ago, I watched the video and everything and read the sales letter. And then, you know, a copywriter explained what the says might have even been you. Maybe you have like a, an article about it or something. But yeah, yeah. So that’s maybe that’s how I came across your work. But that was a brilliant one. And, you know, I take interest in humor, writing, I even went to like a spell where it was like writing jokes every day. I wasn’t planning to do any stand up like he and Stanley or anything, but I really liked the idea of injecting humor into my copy. And so I bought this book by Jerry, I think his name is Jerry Corley. And he’s like, give these nine techniques to write jokes, because he used to write for late night TV with Jay Leno and others. And, you know, he talks about this too, he says, what is what is a great joke, it’s connecting to things that aren’t necessarily connected, right in a new way. So you’re basically saying the same thing like you want to create an engaging analogy, phrase ate one story, take two things that aren’t necessarily connected and find a way to connect them, which will create that, like you said, aha moment for the reader’s brain, right?

30:11

Yep. Yeah, exactly. I feel like I mean, I’m also very interested in humor. And I feel like there’s a huge amount of overlap there. I feel like, depending on what kind of the tone and the purpose that you have, an analogy could be very insightful, where people say, like, Oh, my God, I finally get the idea. Or it could just be really hilarious and ridiculous. And I feel like if again, if you reverse engineer or model what comics are doing, it’s very, very oftentimes, it’s very much an analogy. And doing these kinds of analogies can also be humorous. Like, I remember, one time, I wrote this little booklet about alias copywriters, and like their commandments. And the first chapter of that I remember I used the bit from a Steve Martin stand up thing, and he had this thing about how he like, so that he wasn’t using an analogy, but he was saying, how he, how he approaches girls at the bar, and he will basically like, take a sip of water and grit his teeth, and then like, look over and walk over to the girl and be like, Yeah, I make a lot of money. And that’s his line. And then like, I use that as an analogy to like how a lot of businesses try to impress customers, right. So basically, they go, and they make some sort of, like, outrageous claim. And they think they’re being very, very suave. And, and yet, the reaction is going to be the same way that a girl at the bar might just be like, shocked or repulsed by how this guy’s like thinking that money is going to buy her attention in the same way. Businesses will not have been customers will be like, kind of turned off by somebody making a completely over the top unsubstantiated claim. And in that case, it was maybe a useful analogy in proving my point. But I think it was also funny, because it was like, okay, like comparing, comparing kind of like a joke pickup line to marketing, you know, and so I think that there’s definitely a lot of theirs, there’s a lot of benefits to using analogies beyond just making the sale. And I think that having that influence in people’s lives, or just making yourself some more interesting, is, is a huge part of that. And I mean, what you were saying just now that there’s not really anything new under the sun are very few things that are new under the sun. And I feel like a lot of people are inhibited about writing emails, or especially about writing daily emails, because they worry that, you know, I don’t have anything to say, What am I going to say, you know, and I don’t have anything new to say, or I don’t have enough experience to say anything from my personal authority. And I feel like, you know, you could do this every day, you could come up with a creative analogy every day, and illustrate a very, very kind of mundane point that people have heard 100 times, and there will be value in that email, right. And people find that email engaging and entertaining, and they will even share it on your behalf, even though you’re not, you know, the core of your message is not new, but the way you’ve packaged that thing up is new. And, you know, there’s this guy, Mark Ford, who wrote under the name Michael Masterson, and he was one of the people that I look up to the most in this business. And I think he said something like, you know, there are no new ideas. There’s only new ways of packaging up ideas. And you know, this is a guy who helped build up a vow and who, you know, has been responsible for multiple billions of dollars of direct marketing copy. And he says, there are no new ideas, you know, there’s only new ways of packaging up new ideas. And that’s why there’s few better ways to get your idea across than to have it wrapped up as an analogy, as a new as a new and novel analogy.

34:07

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also makes you a little bit more relatable to if you’re able to use your own stories, like stories from your own life would go back to your seduction example of how Steve Martin, you know, tried to seduce women or his bid from the stand up. I’ve actually been using that a lot myself in terms of like, growing up, I was terrible at that. Like I was terrible at, you know, picking up girls like I don’t think I’ve ever picked up a girl in my life. Like I kind of waited for something to fall in my lap. And you know, almost by accident that happened because I ended up marrying the woman who was a sister to a guy I used to hang out with and basically, I didn’t go far looking and I also I’m most happy to admit that I wasn’t as my history isn’t rich, you know what I mean? Like so, I was terrible at that, to say the least. And, you know, after I started my business, I’ve always remained interested in how it is that you seduce a woman. Right? How is it that you create sexual attraction sexual tension, and I read a lot of material on pickup art? It was essentially how I discovered the information marketing industry in the first place. I was like a customer in that space. And I read the game, I read the book seduction by Robert Greene. So I’ve gotten a lot of books on that topic from which I was easily able to extract analogies into my content creation, as fact, this podcast, out of all the episodes we’ve got, there’s at least 20% or so that are focused around seduction, dating, you know, relationship, as it refers to client attraction, business, closing sales, lead generation, and so on, and so forth. And it was like a very intuitive thing for me to do, because it’s just a topic I took interest in. And I think anyone can do it, I think we all have our interests, I think we’ll have our sort of reference points within the culture that we attach ourselves to. But people just don’t realize they can do it, I just don’t think they can actually whip it out. And use it. Use preexisting knowledge they already have like, not necessarily specialized knowledge, but rather just, you know, pop culture knowledge or general interest. Now, let me ask you something, feel free to say no, would you be open to maybe playing with a few ideas, maybe I can pitch you with a story, or an idea of some kind. And for you to spin it to, to, you know, kind of come up with an idea for or like a brief outline, for an email,

37:00

We can, we can definitely do it. But before that, I want to give a caveat to that. And that’s the way that I often do read my emails is that I will sit on an idea for a long time, in the sense of like, I will often come up, I will often find an interesting story. And the first, like, let’s say the first analogy that pops into my head, or the first point that I can make from that story is often not satisfying to me, because again, it made me it’s not. It’s not novel enough, you know, and I find that a lot of people who are using or who are making analogies are telling personal stories. I feel like their stuff is too predictable. And I want to avoid that. And so lots of times I sit on my stuff until I can pair it up with something that’s new and novel. But that’s it. Okay, we can try it. And let’s see.

37:49

Okay. Noted. Noted. So we’re going to put you on the spot. So one thing I have here in my home office on the floor where there is, it was my daughter’s birthday about a week ago, and she’s now putting together this giant Lego, like a boutique hotel Lego. It’s like, it’s pretty big. It’s like 3000 pieces. So think of Legos, you know, plastic cubes, put together like a structure of some kind, or anything that you know about LEGO in general.

38:25

Okay, and what are we? What are we trying to sell?

38:28

What are we trying to sell? Let’s, let’s go and sell a let’s go and sell a how to learn how to play piano at home without a music teacher? Video Course. Okay,

38:41

I mean, I would say in that case, I’m not sure how creative this is. But I would say like, look, you take any one of those individual Lego pieces, and they really have very little value. And they’re very uncreative on their own, just a little round, red block of something, right. And, and it seems very uninteresting, on its own. And it’s uninteresting if you put five Lego pieces together. But if you put 3000 of those pieces together according to a prescribed plan, then suddenly the thing really has a life of its own. And you know, you have people coming over and looking at it and saying, oh my God, and you know, it’s a complex thing, and there’s some emergent value out of it. And the same thing happens with piano, you know, you might, you might not realize that, you know, every one of these simple things that you’re learning and the individual keys and chords you’re hitting is really not impressive on its own. And it may take time for you to combine enough of those pieces but if you stick with it for long enough, and if you have the entire let’s say manual that tells you how to combine all those pieces individually then suddenly you get something that becomes large and impressive and that people will come over to your house or admiring and you know you get this reaction where it’s like While I wish I could do this thing. So I feel like that’s a possible way that I could spend.

40:05

That’s not bad actually. Yeah, like, I don’t think it has to be like 3000 pieces because it sounds intimidating. But even if we talk about like, the smaller Legos, I think you’re making a great analogy here, like, take 100 pieces, but put them in a certain sequence and a certain structure, and all of a sudden, you’ve got a masterpiece, kind of like, you know, like you said, a single node or a couple of nodes on their own, not impressive, but you put them in a sequence, bam, you’ve got yourself a beautiful song. While you were coming up with this idea, you know, I, I figured, you can also say something like, you know, I’m watching my daughter put together a 3000 piece Lego, that will end up looking like a boutique hotel with lots of detail. And I’m thinking how the hell does she do it, but then realize Lego, what it teaches us it’s even a complicated structure like that is a sequential process, like you have to follow, you have to take tons and tons and tons of small steps in a sequence of some kind. And the reason that a 10 year old can do it, is because she has been, she’s been trained to follow the manual, right? So it’s really not a matter of how creative she is, it’s actually a matter of, okay, if you follow the manual, and you take one step at a time, these micro tiny little steps, you know, even a 10 year old can put together this incredible structure. And in many ways, learning how to play a complicated piano song. Even if it’s really big and really long and requires two hands and two feet to play, it actually does come down to breaking it down into one note at a time, and then sequentially playing and memorizing those notes. So it isn’t about creativity. It isn’t about God given talent. It’s more about do you have the patience? And the and you know, and desire to sit down and just follow a manual? And if you do, then here’s a great manual for you to follow by now. 47 Before we raise the price, blah, blah, blah. Right? So that’s good. Yeah, I wanted to say that. You can basically take the same idea, so your approach is for one direction. I approached from a different direction. I’m pretty sure we can have 10 Other people contribute to the same sort of thing, we can ask them the same question, and they’ll come up with 10 different analogies. And this is what I love about this approach. Specifically, you can have, like 100 people write about the same thing, or start with the same idea, but end up with 100 different ideas on how you can make that point.

42:43

Exactly. And I think actually, that’s a very good point, and something that I should have brought up maybe earlier, which is that when you do make your analogy, as somebody who’s trying to ultimately persuade and influence people, you also have to explain your analogy. Because if you just say, you know, my daughter’s Lego kit is just like this piano course, there are lots of different ways that you can interpret that. And in one way, that’s good, because that means that on different days, you can make the same argument using those two pieces in different ways. But it also means that unless you make that analogy explicit, unless you say why it is that, you know, the level set is the same as the piano course, then your reader might interpret it in the way that you don’t want them to interpret it. So you might say, Oh, it’s just like that Lego set in that I’m not interested in Legos, therefore, I’m not interested in, of course, the piano, of course, so you have to be explicit about it. And I think what you said is absolutely right, I remember, there was this training that Paris, Lynn Propolis, who’s a Ailis copywriter that I learned a ton from, he put on this training and part of that training, I remember, he had his team of coffee cups, and, and he was playing this game with them. And he said, Okay, love is like a bathtub, right? Or something like that. And basically, he had that phrase. And then he had, I don’t know, five or 10 or 20 people complete that love is like a bathtub, because and then our one person said, because it keeps you warm and snuggly, and other person said, because you can drown in both, you know, a third person said, because I don’t even remember what it was. But everybody concluded in a different way. Everybody drew a slightly different connection between those two images. And that’s something that you could do yourself when you’re trying to persuade, but it’s also something that you have to do explicitly, because you’re not just trying to be, you know, delivering a sermon on the mount where you’re speaking in parables and you’re only speaking to the chosen people who understand your message. Now you want everybody to understand your message. And you want to make that message explicit. So once you deliver the analogy, so here’s why you got to, you know, specifically spell out what those connections are?

45:04

No, you’re right, you’re absolutely correct. And the wider you cast your net, the more important this becomes, right. Because if you’re operating in a specialized environment, if you’re going into a really tiny niche, then you can afford to get rid of the analogies and you can just speak directly to that market, because they don’t get that enough. Like, if you’re talking to a market that’s only say, 15,000 people big, it’s like a particular type of fisherman, who only goes into that one particular place on the planet, like some corner of Alaska and only fishes for that one particular type of salmon or trout or something, like you will talk to them about that they’ll listen to you all day long. But if you’re casting a wider net, say supplements, real estate investing, you know, things like that, you have to make it a lot more broad and relatable for the average person. So I think that’s a pretty good point. And, and I want to do one more, I think you’ll, you’ll nail this one quite easily. So let’s, and I want to preface this with the following statement. Guys, when you’re doing this, make sure you pick analogies that are as far away from the very natural topic you’re trying to create content around. Or like for example, we’re going to do one about fishing right now. But we’re not going to sell anything related to fishing. So if you’re trying to sell something related to golfing, don’t pick golfing analogies, right? Don’t talk about the swing, you kind of have to move away from it as far as possible and talk about something completely unrelated. So you know what, I’ll give you two. I’ll give you two examples. You pick one you like, just because one of them just happened to me yesterday. So yesterday, I had some kind of issue with my plumbing. And when I flushed, the water started coming up. Right. So a big issue had to be calling in the plumber etc. So that’s one you can play with. Or another one is, let’s say fishing, right? Where there are, say, a dozen fishermen all fishing the same pond. Okay. And we’re selling Yeah, I also have to know, I didn’t know we were selling, we are selling, we are selling a gym membership.

47:24

Okay. I mean, I feel like with the toilet thing, you know, just now that you were talking about that I was reading recently about somebody who was very healthy, or who considered themselves to be very healthy, that was getting on an age. And then out of nowhere, he had this moment where he basically I guess, realized that he was having trouble speaking. And I guess it turned out he had a couple of strokes, you know. And so I might, if I’m talking about a gym membership, I may try to make the connection between like, Okay, well, here’s the story that happens with my toilet, and, you know, the toilet looks perfectly clean, everything is okay. And then I tried to flush it and this thing came up. And then maybe I might actually combine this with that story of like, yeah, you know, maybe this is a little bit inappropriate to compare this to the human body into a real person. But fundamentally, something similar happens inside of your own arteries and so on. And this guy, you know, he looked perfectly healthy. And, and yet, there was something fundamentally wrong inside of him. And, you know, the same way that I mean, again, maybe this is a bit of a distasteful analogy, but the same way that you know, clogged toilets can cause massive damage inside of your house. So, this guy almost died, you know, from, from some sort of a clogged artery and, and therefore, you know, at the end of that, I would say, Look, I’m not I’m not promising you that, you know, my, that regular exercise will keep you from, from heart disease or from stroke for the rest of your life, but it’s been medically proven to cut down your chances by 98%, or whatever the statistics are. And, and just make that analogy between the toilet and health. And that’s it.

49:14

Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, um, let me try to go with this soil. I’ll do the toilet thing as well. How about this, so everything was perfect and fine, it was a Sunday afternoon and then I flushed the toilet and never had an issue and all of a sudden, older, older water, you know, started coming up and all of a sudden, this spills all over the floor, and there’s panic and I, you know, and I’m scrambling, reaching out to my friends Googling, you know, trying to look up for you know, look up a plumber, which you know, is really is really challenging to find on a Sunday afternoon for someone to just come in and fix your issue. And so, this is how, you know, this reminds me how most people are about their health, you know, they are kind of minding their own business, not really thinking about it until there’s a crisis until there’s, you know, brown water all over the floor in the bathroom. And, and, you know, but then it’s like you’re trying to fight an emergency, which is a lot more difficult to deal with, than if you were to just put some prevention in place, and avoid that issue altogether. So, you know, don’t wait for the last moment, don’t wait until something bad happens, why don’t you start working on your health right now and come in, you know, into the gym, and let’s do an assessment or something. So essentially, it’s very similar to what you’ve just done. It’s just a bit of a, it’s a slightly different way to communicate it. But again, it’s different enough to make it sound completely different. Right?

50:49

Yeah. I mean, I think, again, maybe you were talking about this a moment ago, but you were saying how, you know, if you’re going into a broader market, then you need to have maybe something that’s more like an analogy to reach a broader audience. But I think the other thing is well, is that if you’re going into a lot of markets, for example, like health, you know, or making money online, or finances or things like that, there are a lot of people in that market who again, have heard these things, we’ve heard these points, but for whatever reason, it hasn’t really fully clicked in their head, you know, and if you just keep making the same point that they’ve heard before, chances are, they’re not going to hear you any more, you know, and, and maybe they have some sort of self-esteem issue around that topic, or they have some sort of mental block around that topic. And an analogy kind of allows you a way to sidestep that as well, you know, and, and so this thing about, you know, whether you use a toilet as an analogy, to get people to take care of better care of their health, or any of 50 other things, you know, that you could think of whether it’s, you know, food, or cars, or sports or anything like that any of those things could in some way be matched to the idea of like, and it’s important that you take care of your health today, maybe which is something that people have heard of a million times, but by combining it with something, that the some making some new connection, it might finally get into their head, even though they’ve heard it a million times before.

52:24

Yes, yes. Well, I wish we can carry on talking about this, because it’s actually pretty, pretty exciting and fun. However, we are out of time, guys. If you like the style with which John communicates and the things that he taught you on this podcast, I highly recommend going to bejakovic.com, that’s B ejakovic.com. And getting on his list, and then flipping through the pages of his blog, because it’s full of stuff like that. It’s full of really valuable, really cool insights into how to be a better communicator, how to have better influence over complete strangers over the internet, and in general, how to become a better communicator, someone who other people will be excited to hear from in their inbox every single day. Now, John also has a copywriting training program, which I believe the enrollment is close to now or is it? Is it closed?

53:25

Like it used to be? No, it’s not evergreen. So if anybody wants to get it, it’s open

53:30

Every year. Okay. All right. Yeah. Because I remember seeing something about the registration closing, but right now it’s, he’s open for enrollment. He’s open for taking students. So if you want to get more from John, I also recommend looking into his paid program. It’s ridiculous value for money. And the amount of money you’ll make just by becoming a better communicator, being able to produce high quality material is of course, ridiculously, you know, you’re just gonna make a lot more than you invest. Yeah, with that said, we do have to wrap up. John, thank you so much for your insights today. This has been brilliant. I think many, many of our listeners will be listening to this several times in their cars while they’re jogging, you know, washing dishes and on the toilet, whatever they listen to podcasts these days. And true pleasure hosting on the show. Hopefully, we’ll see you in the listening lifestyle again. Thank you for listening to the list building lifestyle, get access to the previous episodes transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also, remember to claim your free copy of my bestselling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how we made millions with list building starting from scratch. Plus, I’ll give you $3,000 worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email swipe files and traffic blueprints. Go to www.igorsbook.com. Now to claim your free package.