Igor interviews #1 emailer in network marketing education space. Vitaly Grinblat used to write for Magnetic Sponsoring and is now the head email honcho at Elite Marketing Pro. Find out why email isn’t dead and how to write a damn good one to make money with your list.
How To Get More MLM Sign Ups With Email Marketing
Igor interviews #1 emailer in network marketing education space. Vitaly Grinblat used to write for Magnetic Sponsoring and is now the head email honcho at Elite Marketing Pro. Find out why email isn’t dead and how to write a damn good one to make money with your list.
Igor Kheifets: I'm Igor Kheifets and this is the List Building Lifestyle, a podcast
for those who want to build a large profitable email list and make six figures from
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while helping people, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to attend a free web
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it's time to claim your list building lifestyle.
Welcome back to another episode of the List Building Lifestyle with your host, Igor Kheifets. Today joining me in the virtual studio, with the virtual coffee shop if you will, the number one emailer in the network marketing education space. The person who used to write emails for the magnetics sponsoring company and now for the elite marketing pro. He's literally mailing millions upon millions of emails each and every single month in the network marketing education space, my friend, Vitaly Grinblat. Welcome to the show.
Vitaly Grinblat: Hey Igor. Thanks for having me. My pleasure to be here.
Igor Kheifets: Trust me, the pleasure is all mine because, and I sincerely say that it's not every day that I get to host someone who's operating in what I would say is a very, very competitive space, as well as a space that is not as a receptive to marketing messages as most other spaces. For example, if we were talking about mailing out promotions in the health niche, right? Those promos will be more receptive by the prospects because they're just looking to get rid of the pain. Now [inaudible 00:02:03] marketing space, people kinda try to make money but at the same time they have so many beliefs that get in the way that when you sell 'em something they rebel against it, so you're now probably one of the best in the world in that industry when it comes to email marketing and maybe even copywriting as well because, although I haven't seen much of your copy I've definitely been reading your emails everyday. So I'm really excited to pick your brain about emailing marketing specifically and probably direct response in general. So to launch us into this interview, why don't you give our listeners, who we gently called list builders, the brief two minute or five minute version of how you go into email marketing in the first place.
Vitaly Grinblat: Sure, so I'll give you the brief version. So yeah I came from the world of direct sales and network marketing. I got started back in 1995 at a young age of 19, came to a ... if any of your listeners know what network marketing is, you know you go to a meeting, usually a hotel meeting or an office meeting and you hear about making money and you get really excited and that's how I got into that business. I did that for 11 years. During that time all I did pretty much ... it was a direct sales company that sold financial products and services and we did it the old traditional way. You pick up the phone, you prospect, you meet people, you make phone calls, you knock on doors, you go into businesses. I mean I did that for many, many years. I did in home presentations in the evening, drove all over my state and some other states as well and so the thing is that I'm an introvert by nature, so like I went into a business that's really made for extroverts and I was extremely introverted. I was scared to death to pick up the phone and all of that but I did it 'cause I had the desire to make money. Even though I struggled for a number of years eventually I got good at all that stuff and I was doing well. I was making money, but what I found ... myself in is after 10 years I was really sick and tired of doing all that manual labor. So one day I get home and I find a little mailer in my mailbox that says, and I was looking for it recently. I couldn't find it. I wish I still had that. It was basically a sales letter, but it looked like a booklet. The gist of it was that you can make money online without ever having to leave your home, without ever having to pick up your phone, without ever having to sit down in front of a customer, a prospect and overcome objections and it was like, you know it was music to my ears because like you can make sales and you don't have to do all that stuff that I've been doing for almost 11 years and so-
Igor Kheifets: It's funny how it hasn't changed.
Vitaly Grinblat: It hasn't.
Igor Kheifets: I mean the actually like angle.
Vitaly Grinblat: [crosstalk 00:04:45] That's right. That's right, but I mean I literally stayed up that night. I ordered the information and this was before digital downloads were available or online streaming videos and all of that so it was a physical DVD that I would get in the mail and I sat there everyday opening my mailbox waiting for it to arrive. When I got it I stayed up at night watching it 'till like 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. And so that's how I got into this crazy world of internet marketing and I started learning about direct response and that was back in the end of 2005, early 2006. And so I decided at that point that I was gonna leave that other business and jump into this and that's what I started doing back in 2005, 2006. I sold info products, affiliate products, did a lot of affiliate stuff [inaudible 00:05:28] stuff, little bit about CPA marketing, bought a lot of traffic on Google. I got involved in Google AdWords, really studied that and was spending a lot of money on Google. By 2009, 2010 I got to a point where I was actually making six figures and life was pretty good. I was sitting at home running ads, you know, I was building a list and I've heard all the things about the money's in the list and I literally took it to hey, if you build a list and the money's just gonna come, which I learned that it's not really how it works. There's a little bit more that you have to do than just build a list. But everything was going really, really well until one day I get a letter from Google that says that my account is banned or shut down. I'm suspended and I'm banned for life because [crosstalk 00:06:12]-
Igor Kheifets: What a surprise.
Vitaly Grinblat: What a surprise, right, but it was to me. Now picture this. This is June of 2010. We had three kids. I have twins, six month old twins at the time and a seven year old going to private school. We just bought a home a year before so big mortgage, car payments, just sort of lifestyle and my income, like 95% of my income is gone overnight 'cause most of my income came from Google AdWords. And so I was depressed for a couple weeks and then I'm not gonna go back to a job and I certainly wasn't going to go back to my old direct sales business so I start thinking, well, what am I going to do? And so I have this list, right? That I'm sending emails, but I'm not really getting much response 'cause most of the sales came on the front end from the Google ads that I was running. I was thinking, you know, why don't I start sending them emails, more emails and get better at this stuff? And so at first I just thought I'd model what I thought the "gurus" were doing and I just started sending 'em all kinds of pitches. Every email was a pitch. Pitch for a click bang product for a CPA product, I mean I literally burned my list to death and exhausted it in like six months or less and I made some money but most people unsubscribed, became completely unresponsive, and so i figured out that that's not working. And so I got into other things like blogging. I did a little bit of [visio 00:07:35] consulting and social media consulting, 'cause Facebook was becoming hot at that point. I did it for local businesses but the idea of sending emails really was interesting to me because I knew that yes there is money in the list, I just had to crack that code. And so I started learning about email marketing. And I quickly figured out that it's not just about sending people emails, it's what you say in those emails. It's the relationship that you build with your list. It's the value and we'll talk a little bit about that today or a lot if you want. The value that you provide in those emails is gonna make people wanna open those emails, read them, and eventually consume your content and your product and your recommendations. And so I made that shift. Here's what's happened. This is early 2011. For the first time I was getting actually replies from the emails that I sent from my list, from the few people that were still on it that were actually reading my emails. They were like, "Wow, we really like what you wrote. You know I agree with you. Or I don't agree with you." So I was getting interaction. I was actually getting a response from people, and that made me rethink this whole idea of how email marketing should be, and so I developed some philosophies around that and that's when I really jumped into email marketing and have been basically emailing the right way ever since.
Igor Kheifets: Wow. That's incredible. So you know it's interesting how most list buildings I talk to, most people who have succeeded at them, myself included, by the way, like we always end up burning our first list. Like it's just inevitable. We just ... we're so giddy with just let's mail the list. Let's make some money. Mail. Mail. Eventually we just burn it out and only then through sheer experience we learn, okay, well maybe there's a different way to communicate. You mention the word value. Okay? Now this is a word that is often kinda misinterpreted by most people. They think value is our teaching. What is value to you? What do you define as value when you email your list?
Vitaly Grinblat: I love this question. So I'm really glad we're gonna tackle that because I'm not gonna say that I'm right, because I think I'm right, but you know there's no right or wrong. This is my opinion that this is what works for me, but value ... see when most people think value is is teaching and providing lots of content and giving away the "secrets", okay? So yeah, that's value, but here's the problem when you do that. The problem when you give away value is first of all I firmly believe that when people do not pay for something they really don't value it as much so it kinda loses its value. Like how often have we downloaded free reports? Like I got a full hard drive with free reports. Now the truth is I probably haven't read 80% of them.
Igor Kheifets: 80? So you ... it means you read 20%. You're way ahead of me. [crosstalk 00:10:26]
Vitaly Grinblat: ... more generous. Maybe I haven't read, I don't know, 90 or 95%. The truth is that when you opt in for a free report you have intention of reading them, but you download it and you move on to something else. And the reason you move on to something else is because it's free and therefore you don't put a lot of value on it. But I guarantee if you paid $1,000 bucks for that information, you probably gonna crack it open and at least start reading it.
Igor Kheifets: You may not finish it, but you'll start.
Vitaly Grinblat: If it's me I'll finish it but most people will at least crack it open, right? So that's the whole thing is that when you provide, when you hard teach, when you actually give away all the goodies in your emails or just give 'em away. I don't care if it's on Facebook, through Facebook Lives or whatever, people just don't value it. Number one. Number two, let's face it, we're in business to make money, right? I mean I got into it to make money. In fact, I wrote an email about that this morning, that I'm not gonna apologize for the fact that I got into this to make money. It's not my only driver, but it's one of my primary drivers, and so the only way we're gonna make money is if we sell stuff. But if you give everything away in your email or in other ways that you distribute your content, why are people gonna buy from you?
Igor Kheifets: Well, there's really no reason for them to do obviously. Not only because ... actually, this is something that I really wanna like throw in there. Not only because you'll give them all your content for free, that I think won't stop people from buying from you. What I think happens there is you sort of condition them to expect it for free, which is not about the mere contents itself, but more about, the why would I pay you if you've conditioned me, you made me expect to get everything for free.
Vitaly Grinblat: Exactly. That's exactly right. And so the question is, okay, so what is value? 'Cause I did say that you provide value, and so your question is, so what is value? Well, value to me is something called entertainment. Because the truth is that we as human beings, we really put a lot of value on entertainment and you don't have to go very far to see that. Look at movie theaters when a new movie comes out. People rush to go spend $10 bucks, $15 bucks, $20 bucks, whatever, depending on where you live, to go see a movie, right? And if you have a family of five like I do, it can be like $100 to go see ... or $70 to $100, depending on the movie theater to go see that movie. Okay? So, yeah you go see concerts. Just the other day or last Friday I was at a concert downtown Detroit. I'm from Michigan, from Detroit. We went downtown Detroit to Fox Theater and these two guys came to perform called the Piano Guys, amazing. One plays the piano, the other guy plays cello. They play old classics, mixed with modern music, with rock and hits. They mix it all up. It's really cool. The theater has 5,000 seats. It was completely sold out. It was booked. I mean people, this was on a Friday night. The parking's like $25 bucks. The tickets to get in the door, the cheapest were I think were $50 or 60 and it went all the way up to $150 and people would spend that to go and sit there for two hours to watch two guys play cello and piano to be entertained. I mean people spend money to be entertained. And so if you can provide some of that entertainment in your emails without them having to spend $100 bucks, to me that's value.
Igor Kheifets: Yeah, and I think, you know in our society today and I think it's only going to get "worst" in the future is that celebrities and entertainers, including sports and music and theater and stuff like that, they're the ones that are gonna be getting paid the most. So if you can combined your marketing with entertainment value, there's really no way you can lose. No way you can lose that way.
Vitaly Grinblat: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know I'll give you a perfect example, 'cause I was thinking about this as I was kinda wrapping my head around what we were gonna talk about today. I knew we were gonna get to the subject of value. So I thought about this recently. I'm not gonna name any names, but I'm on a lot of lists and so there's these two guys and they sell very similar products. It's a subset of a marketing niche, let's say. And I've been on both of these guys' lists for a long time, like at least a decade, okay? And this is something I noticed very recently. Both are very good. Okay? And both have very good information and both have very good products. One guy sends daily emails that are like what we're talking about, entertainment and we can dive into that a little bit more on exactly what that entertainment is but basically they're very entertaining style emails. And of course he has a mix of products on there as well so he combines entertainment with marketing which we call infotaining, right? Information and valuable entertainment so it's infotaining. The other guy, he just sends an email every once in awhile and it's pure content. Like a typical newsletter style email that just point one, point two, point three. It's very long. It's got a lot of great stuff, like he teaches, and it's good stuff. It's very valuable stuff. But here's what I've noticed. The first guy, I must've spent about $2,000 bucks with the guy, or more. At least $2,000, okay from products and courses that I've bought over the years. And the other guy? I thought that I actually spend money with him. What I realized is is that when I bought a program about a month ago from him, that was the first thing I actually bought from him, 'cause I own a book that I bought from Amazon through this guy and I thought that actually I had his stuff, but I didn't. I only had the book that I bought from Amazon. I never even bought ... I've been on this guy's list for 10 years. The first time I bought something was a month ago and I was like, that's less than a hundred bucks.
Igor Kheifets: Even though you subscribe and you admire what he's doing.
Vitaly Grinblat: Yes, his valuable stuff. Yes, and arguably his stuff is actually better than the other guy's.
Igor Kheifets: But he's not ... he's not making you any offers, is it? I mean. Your income is directly proportionate to the amount of offers you're gonna make to your audience.
Vitaly Grinblat: Yes. It's kinda hidden in the emails. It's not ... he doesn't directly come out and make an offer like the other guy.
Igor Kheifets: And think what it communicates too. [crosstalk 00:16:42]
Vitaly Grinblat: 10 times more of my money with the other ... Well, actually, 20 times more of my money with the other guy because he's entertaining and he made an offer.
Igor Kheifets: Exactly and think about what it communicates too because if you are sort of pulling a punch in your marketing by not making an offer any chance you get in a very, you know, in a proper way, in a way that makes sense of course, not just by purely just pitching, pitching, pitching all the time, but more so by building up to it, getting them dressed up and then showing them where to go next. What does that communicate about your and your belief in your product? Because if you're not ... like, this is the example I love giving. Imagine your neighbor has a 12 year old daughter who has stage two kidney cancer, and just so it happens you came across a solution. It's a machine that you install in someone's home and it has like a 70% ... because nothing is every 100%, so it has a 70% chance of curing anyone of cancer, at least for the next few years. Just like that. Okay. I don't know the mechanism, but let's just assume that's what you have, so how aggressive would you be knowing that there's a 70% chance you can help him save his daughter's life even thought that machine requires for him to remortgage his home to pay you say $50,000 because it's really expensive. So if you are a marketer and if you have healthy beliefs about money, selling and you really wanna help this guy, you're gonna be throwing bricks at his windows. You're gonna be knocking on his door every day. You're gonna be doing whatever you have to do to get him to pay attention and to listen to your proposal because you know that the end result potentially can be either extending his daughter's life for another 10 years or curing her and giving them a life that they can enjoy together so you know a lot of people don't take that approach.
Vitaly Grinblat: Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And you know I think it stems from people are just ... they're afraid. John Carlton has a phrase, they're selling from their heels?
Igor Kheifets: The back of their heels. Yep.
Vitaly Grinblat: Right. People just feel like if they ... 'cause sales has such a negative connotation and so I'm fortunate that I come from the world of direct sales before getting into direct response and internet marketing is that I learned how to sell, and what you just described, that's pretty much how I felt when I was sitting down with people. I sold financial products and services. One of my products, one of our core products was life insurance where you'd basically sit down with somebody and you'd sell 'em a life insurance policy that really there is no benefit to them. The benefit is to their family so if they die they get to ... their family gets to cash in. The idea behind it, really quickly, 'cause I don't wanna get off on a tangent, but the idea is that if you're a bread winner and if you make money and something happens to you tomorrow and you're gone, your income is gone, but you still have obligations. You still have a family and kids that still need that income that is now gone, and so your life insurance policy is kind of like an income replacement. That's what we used to call it. It's income replacement. And so as a 20 year old I would go sit down with people who were 45 and I would sell 'em that stuff. And that's where I learned how to communicate what you just said, right? Be that way where I knew I had something that was of importance to that family, and I had to get their attention. I had to get them to see it the way that I saw it and transfer that belief, and so yeah, you have to develop that with your product. Absolutely.
Igor Kheifets: Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting you mention this word belief. I was just watching the recordings of Gary Bencivenga's 100 Seminar, which I consider to be one of the most advanced I'd say. You know and really in depth copywriting trainings for anyone to see and you know he talks about the whole concept of belief and selling on proof and he says that no one buys without belief and the greater their level of belief the more likely they are to buy. And he goes into 12 different strategies in how to create belief, even if you don't necessarily have income proof screenshots to shove down people's throats. So yeah, the belief is absolutely necessary but what is underestimated is how much belief you need to have in order to convince someone else or inspire someone else, is the word I like to use better than convincing, like the belief you must have in order to get the other person to buy in to your ideas and of course into your products.
Vitaly Grinblat: Absolutely. Well you have sell yourself first. Unless you're a sociopath, which some people are, and that's fine, but if you're not a sociopath you have to develop that belief. You have to have empathy for people. You really have to get into your prospects' shoes, no matter what you sell. This is again something I learned in ... It's amazing how there's so much correlation between face to face selling and selling through emails and sales copy online. If you have that experience it's great because a lot of that translates. I didn't immediately grasp that but it took me some time to really understand that I have this vast experience with face to face selling. Anyway you have to develop empathy, right? You have to put yourself in the shoes of your prospects and really understand what their pains and what their struggles are and what they're going through. When you do you'll be able to communicate in a much more effective way. You'll be able to, like you said, inspire them. 'Cause yeah, I don't like the word convince or twisting arms or whatever. You are inspiring people, that's what you're doing. You're inspiring people with your words and with your ... yeah, with your words, with what you say and how you say it.
Igor Kheifets: Yep, with the words, with the energy and you know it's really interesting because you mentioned you have to sell yourself, right? We use that word as if you really have to sit down in front of a mirror and start talking to yourself and selling. That's actually something that I've done many times, especially when I've procrastinated about big life decisions, for example, recently I've relocated my family to Canada and it took me about five years to make the decision, took me another two years to get the papers going. And the thing about it was I remember clearly when I started working with my coach, probably a person who's been influencing my life in one of the most significant ways in the last few years, Tom [Beale 00:22:53], he actually asked me like what do I want, like one of those big things that I really want but I never get around to doing it. And I said, "Look, I want my daughter and my son to grow up in North America. I want them to have more opportunities. I want them to have the freedom. I don't want them to grow up in a country that's always in a state of war. I want them to have just a better life, same way that my parents wanted for me to have a better life when they moved from Ukraine to Israel, which was really a step up." Now, the thing about it was that for the longest time I didn't do anything to take the action and then he said, "You know what? Why don't you make a list of 100 reasons why you absolutely must do this. What's gonna happen to your life if you don't do this? What's gonna happen to your life when you do this? You know what are some of the benefits that are gonna happen when you take action, and so on." And I literally did that. I sat down, took me about two weeks of on and off kind of effort, and between things. Sometimes I would take the list with me to the bathroom and think about it there. And so I made a list of 100 reasons why I had to do this, and low and behold within two months I found a lawyer. Within there months we filed the papers and now we're here. Right? So I literally had to sell myself exactly the way it sounds, sell myself in order to make that happen. And whatever the beliefs you guys have about money or success or selling or anything related to just getting rich that are getting in the way and I'm sure you know what these beliefs are, I'd recommend making that list yourself, like the reasons why you have to make it happen.
Vitaly Grinblat: Absolutely. That's fantastic. That's a great story. I actually didn't realize that you live in Canada, so we're neighbors 'cause I'm like half an hour from the Canadian border.
Igor Kheifets: That's right. THat's right. You're in Detroit. That's right.
Vitaly Grinblat: Yep.
Yo, it's Igor. If you're loving the content, hop on over to
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show. It really helps. Thanks.
Vitaly Grinblat: That's right. That's right.
Igor Kheifets: Now that's another big revelation at least for me. I've had a lot of people when they discovered what I do. As you know I sell solo ads, I sell traffic, I help people build email lists. They always told me, "Igor, why do you only sell lists in the make money online space or networking marketing space or whatever?" I'm like, "I don't know because I'm good at it, why not?" And they're like, "Well, you should start selling traffic in the weight loss space and the 4X space, in the back pain relief space, bedbug space." Like they start making up niches for me, and the idea of going ... we call it horizontal, right going sideways with the business wasn't as attractive to me as going deeper and just taking my market, my tribe and serving my tribe with more products and more services, solving more problems for them. Now as a result that created massive growth for me. In fact, compared to about four and a half years ago, our business I wanna say 20x'd, not just 10x'd. And that has been a major concept in our business that we've been utilizing to kind of deepen our connection with the customer. So you've noticed probably the same and you've been writing emails to the exact same audience for years now in the network marketing space, so perhaps you could share with us your philosophy when it comes to really maintaining that relationship with your audience, discovering new opportunities within your list. How would you go about creating a new product, if at all and when you do, how would you test the idea. So basically I want to get into the back office if you will, right? And then wanna you know see your lab. How do you go about creating all these exciting ideas and new income streams?
Vitaly Grinblat: So yeah I think there's a lot to be said about what you mentioned about going wide versus going deep and I, because I come from a different industry originally I always have this idea of multiple streams of income, which I think that whole notion has kind of ... it's over-exaggerated and it's kinda glorified, but the truth is that you wanna focus on one thing, you know. I tried doing multiple things at the same time, and to a degree I still do, but it's very difficult to spin multiple plates and be good at it, so I think yeah, if you focus on one niche, on one thing you can be so much better than trying to do three or four things at the same time and be mediocre at best. Let's put it that way. So yeah, what do we do? You know, first of all I know this market. Like if you're gonna write to your audience you have to ... This is how I approach this, right? You have to really, really, really get to know your audience. Fortunately for me with what I'm doing on a daily basis with emails, I not only know this market well, I was this market for a very long time. So in a way I'm writing to myself, not currently, but to myself from about 12, 13 years ago. Okay and that helps. That helps because I understand that mindset. You really ... there's a saying in copywriting that you have to be able to enter the conversation going on in your prospect's head. Right? I think Robert Collier said that and you really have to know what your audience is thinking. Right? If you're gonna write something that's gonna inspire them to take action, especially today when there's so much noise in the marketplace. There's always been noise, but today I mean there's more noise than ever before with Facebook, people are on Facebook and they get notifications all the time. There's notifications to their phones, there's notifications to their desktops. It's crazy, right, so you have to be able to get their attention and if you wanna be able to get their attention you have to know what's going on in their head, right? So it all starts off with the first email when somebody get on your list I call this your handshake email. Like this is your .. you know there's a saying that you never get a second chance to make the first impression. And so that first email that you send kinda sets the tone for the relationship and for positioning. It positions you in a certain way and it lets them know what you believe, if you open yourself up and tell them what kind of value they can expect from you, what you provide, and it sets the tone for everything moving forward and if you do it right, they're gonna start looking forward to your emails. Now of course I did it wrong. You mentioned that you also burned your list in the beginning and I think most people do. So it's never too late to start over. I mean, it's never too late to send a new handshake email. But you have to create an email, and you have to position yourself as a leader, as the expert, as someone who's gonna lead them out of the pain that they're in and into the so called promise land with whatever your product does, okay? And so that's where it starts for me. And it really begins with building that like and trust, that whole like and trust factor, right? You have to. Because people will not do business with anybody that they don't trust and so if you want people to trust you, then you have to open up and you have to reveal a little bit about yourself, and you have to share stories. You don't have to tell them your entire life story, but you have to share your story. I'll give you an example. When we started talking early on and you asked me about email marketing I gave a very brief story about my Google AdWords experience, right? I was driving traffic from Google and I said, "picture this ..." I think I used the words, "picture this. I have a new house, three kids, two six month old babies. I'm the sole breadwinner, and car payments, this that and the other. All of a sudden my income is gone." Right? And so when I said that, when I shared that, you listening to this, I mean you picture this, you immediately ... you feel a little bit of my pain, and I'm being a little bit vulnerable. That creates a bond between you and the listener, the person sharing the story and the person on the other end receiving the story, and that's what you have to do in your emails. You have to open up and you have to share a little bit of yourself, and that's how I approach a lot of my emails is being open.
Igor Kheifets: I agree with that concept by the way. Like I noticed at any time I open up and "lead by vulnerability" you know there's actually a whole book about it. It's called Dare to Lead that Dennis has been telling me, Dennis my business partner's been telling me to read it for like ages now. Basically the concept is the more you open up and the more you're not afraid to appear as a failure, the more you're not afraid to be judged, the more you're just genuinely opening up, and you know, not to make it sound like you just want to tell your sob story to everybody, no, just kinda share the real honest feelings that you have and the experiences that you've gone through, even if they have seemingly no relation whatsoever to what you're selling, even though you can always tie it in using good copy, the response always goes up for me. Anytime I write about any kind of personal experience the response always goes up and it's almost like sometimes I feel that my market craves that. Sometimes you know I've actually been to the seminar earlier this year and one of my good customers, somebody who gave me several thousand dollars, somebody who listens to this ... probably listening to this episode right now, so Terrence, if you're listening we're saying, hi from Toronto here. Terrence told me that he says, "Look, the interviews are great. Like the interviews you're doing with your guests are great, but the spotlight is on the guests, you know I really love those episodes when you're just opening up and tell stories about your dad used to condemn you about trying to make it online and not getting a real job. How your mom didn't understand why you didn't give her $500 that month and instead spent it on a laptop, you know to build your business." Those real stories, especially if they're related to your family or any kind of personal experience end up creating more response and have a much bigger emotional impact and therefore create more sales because sales are always emotional than any sort of factual teaching you'll ever do.
Vitaly Grinblat: Absolutely. Well you know we are hardwired, hardwired to listen and pay attention to stories. We crave that. That's part of the entertainment value, right? And so when you tell a story first of all immediately people start paying attention, right? Because if you're ... and I did that. I did that on a stage a few years ago just 'cause I was talking about stories. It was a very brief talk and I said, and I opened up with this, "I'm in Las Vegas last month. It's 5:00 a.m. in the morning, my alarm goes off," and like you could literally hear a pin drop because everybody's looking like, "Where am I going with this?" Because the minute you start telling a story people start paying attention. Now you said something about not telling your sob stories and all of that, that's true, like you don't wanna get into like all the drama and you don't need to tell your entire life story, but you can use many small stories to make a point and create a connection with an audience, and you can use 'em as teaching stories and as selling stories. I believe that it's the best way to sell is by telling a story because you can explain and make analogies and create metaphors in the story and that's the ultimate way to sell in my opinion.
Igor Kheifets: Yeah, stories are pretty incredible. In fact, we got a whole product about that. I released a course on story selling. It's called The Ultimate Bridge Page System and you guys can check it out at bridge.igorsoloads.comand the reason why I love stories so much is because the claims made in the stories don't ever get questioned. In other words like if I approach you Vitaly and I say, "If you sign up with my insurance policy I'll get you like a 3% better return than Sun Life does." And you know that's a claim. It's not backed up by any proof and there's no reason for it to exist other than for me to sell you something, therefore the brain automatically questions that. But if I sit down with you to have a drink or whatever or just have a phone call with you. I tell you a story about how I have this friend who signed up with Son Life and then discovered six months later that their return on the policy is 3% lower than this other company's return and then tried to back out of the policy and couldn't 'cause now he was up to a ten year commitment. All of a sudden the brain doesn't even think about questioning the claim. The brain thinks, "Oh, what if that happened to me?" Therefore, now the prospect is much more receptive to the actual offer if there ever is one and yeah. Stories is definitely one of those things that totally worth mastering, but most people have no freaking clue how to do it and they don't even try. Then when they do it's just like, "You know Vitaly, I'm just ... I'd love to use stories in my marketing, but I'm just not a great story teller."
Vitaly Grinblat: Yep, so here's what I would say to someone like that. I'm glad you brought up insurance. Again going back to when I discovered all of this, when I really learned the power of stories and pretty much of how you communicate in the most effective way. And so when I used to sell life insurance, like I said it's not the easiest thing to sell. Right? Especially when you're young and you're selling to people twice your age. Typically, I would go through all the benefits and all of that but we had a situation at our office, true story, my friend who was the agent, he sat down with the family and he ... they didn't want ... the guy didn't wanna buy the insurance policy. He wanted to think about it 'cause that's the number one objection that you get in sales, "I wanna think about it." And if you're selling online, believe me that's one of the biggest objections you're facing, even though you're not hearing it, but they're thinking, "Oh I'll think about it," right? Which is why we do some of the things that we do with urgency and deadlines and all ... anyway. So he sat down with this family. The guy wanted to think about it. And here's what my friend said, he said, "Look, you know while you're thinking about it, here's what we can do. Let's take this application and it'll give you conditional coverage why the policy's going through the underwriting process, okay? And you will be covered up until the moment that I deliver the policy, and even after that, you will still have a 20 day free look period, so for 20 more days you can think about it. After the policy gets issued and if you wanna cancel it you'll get the refund of your premium and all of that, right? But this way you're covered for like a month or a month and a half while you're thinking about it." And so he convinced slash inspired the guy to do this. Okay? While the guy was thinking about it. He took the application, gave him conditional coverage. Long story short, five days later the guy, he's 41 years old, he comes home and drops dead of a heart attack. Okay?
Igor Kheifets: Wow.
Vitaly Grinblat: New in this country. They've only lived in the country for a couple years. They're from Russia. His wife ... he's 41. His wife is like in the late 30s, two kids. She was stay at home mom. No income. His income is gone and my friend through the conditional coverage that he gave 'em delivered a check for $150,000 to this family. They were able to move out of a bad neighborhood, buy a little house in a much nicer neighborhood. And yes, obviously it was a big tragedy, but financially they weren't devastated. They were emotionally devastated, but financially my friend basically saved them through what he did.
Igor Kheifets: Wow.
Vitaly Grinblat: And so I took that story, exactly what I just told you, and I said, and I used to tell that story at every single kitchen table appointment for years until I left that business. That's how I sold life insurance.
Igor Kheifets: No wonder you've been the top producer.
Vitaly Grinblat: I didn't even let them tell me I wanna think about it. Now, of course, still some people said no and you never bet 100, right? But most qualified people would at least go through that part and do the application because I would just simply say, "Here's what we're gonna do next." We'll take the application. And let me explain to you how this works. When I would tell them, let me explain to you how this works I would start telling the story. And by the time we're done, it's like, it's just ... it was a natural progression of the sales process is to just take out the application and do it. I didn't have to ask them. I didn't have to hard close them. I just told them a story. And you know this can work with any product, on any market, you just have to again, empathize and find a good story. Doesn't have to be as dramatic. I mean this was pretty dramatic, but it doesn't have to be that dramatic, but a story- [crosstalk 00:40:05]
Igor Kheifets: Look, this is a pretty good story. Let's face it and you know obviously it's hard to kinda come up with a similar one if you're not selling life insurance, but you can probably scare people into buying from you if they have a genuine fear. Again, the key here is not to try to make up a fear, but rather tap into a fear they already have.
Vitaly Grinblat: Exactly.
Igor Kheifets: Right because even if they're already making money. I'm thinking about traffic. Naturally I'm thinking, okay so if i were to model that story I was thinking, okay so maybe they have a business where their the ones driving the traffic and driving the business, by going out there to social media maybe or optimizing things, you know kinda maybe appearing on events and stuff like that and what if they drop dead tomorrow? All that income's gonna stop. The family ain't gonna get more income so what if I position my traffic as an automated solution that runs without the breadwinner having to tweak it every day, you know?
Vitaly Grinblat: Yeah.
Igor Kheifets: So that could be a great angle and-
Vitaly Grinblat: That could be a great angle for sure. There's another angle is my story with the Google account, which actually a lot of people can relate to, whether it's Google or Facebook, yes you can ... I mean everybody's who's listening to this I'm sure knows somebody that lost account or has heard of somebody losing a Facebook Ad account or Google AdWords account in the past, right? And so if you're depending on one source of traffic it can be gone and if you're not building a list you're building somebody else's asset which can be taken away from you at any time. Your Facebook page can be gone.
Igor Kheifets: Absolutely.
Vitaly Grinblat: Right? Your Facebook group could be gone. You don't control that. You do not own that, but your list, you own it.
Igor Kheifets: Yeah.
Vitaly Grinblat: And so it's a story about you losing an account and let's say you didn't lose an account. You could say, "You know what? I was just listening to a ..." Like, if I was to write an email about this, [inaudible 00:41:51] stream of consciousness right now Igor? If I was to write an email about this and I was a listener and I was selling a traffic course or a list building course, I could say, "You know, just this morning I was listening to a podcast and the guest speaker or the interview, the person being interviewed talked about losing an account," and I would retell that story very quickly, and say, "you know I got to thinking that most people today rely on social media as a platform to drive traffic and to build their relationship with their list and it can be gone just like that."
Igor Kheifets: Yeah and you know this is a really good concept too. And this is probably gonna be the last thing we're gonna cover before we have to leave, but this is brilliant because you're talking about a concept of borrowing another expert's or another person's story and leveraging that as proof element for your marketing. I did it many, many times. In fact I do have a story of my own where I lost six Facebook Ads accounts, which is why I hate Facebook so much. I talk a lot about that, but you know recently Mike Dillard actually, he emailed and he said that he's discontinuing the guarantee he had on one of his programs where he would give you your money back if you actually followed through because his Facebook ad customer acquisition cost has literally doubled overnight from $400 to $800. Guess what? I totally pimped that story.
Vitaly Grinblat: Yep.
Igor Kheifets: I use it on the podcast. I use it on my webinars, use it in my emails. I totally used it to remind people about what happens when you're trying to suck on Facebook's titty.
Vitaly Grinblat: Yep. Yep. Do it, but just be aware that there's another opportunity that exists and that it can also go away. Your existing opportunity can go away and so absolutely you can use your own stories, you can use somebody else's stories, but yeah there's on take away that people, that I would love for people to walk away with is use stories 'cause they are very, very powerful.
Igor Kheifets: Awesome, and you know you're a prime example of how you take something that's ordinary as talking about life insurance, something as boring as that, and you really think outside the box in the way you present it. It's really cool. Another way I've seen it done I've been pitched on it was to position life insurance as a financial tool where it's actually turns out it's tax deductible and it's not taxable until you actually pass or something like that or maybe or something like that, like it allows you to avoid the estate tax, basically there's some kind of tax loophole related to life insurance. I've been on a three way meeting where the guy actually offered me life insurance as a financial tool which was amazing. I mean I was just there enjoying the presentation. He had a ... Man he nailed it, like he had a down path. I could like I could see the dance that he was doing, like drawing things on paper, pre-framing my objections as I was about to say something he was like, "So you're probably thinking." And he would say what I was thinking. So yeah, the guy was incredible. Anyway.
Vitaly Grinblat: You know I will tell you that ... 'cause people ask me like, "So, how do you get good at copywriting?" And all of that. And there are so many books that you can read and you had some amazing copywriters I know on your podcasts but I would say that you know if you really, really wanna get good, go get a sales job. Go sell and I'm not talking about a retail job, like go sell something for a few months door to door, go sell vacuum cleaners, go sell life insurance. I mean it's a longer process 'cause you gotta get a license and all of that, but the experience that you will get with face to face interaction with people, and being able to anticipate people's objections and knowing how to sell in a face to face environment where you really don't have time to think about your next word or your next phrase and you can't hit the delete key either, it really gives you something to ... that you can translate into copywriting. So I know most people aren't going to do that, but yeah, I'm gonna put that out there that if somebody really wants to master this go get some sales experience. It will come in handy.
Igor Kheifets: Yes, I agree with you. It's totally priceless to do that. In fact pretty much every major copywriting mentor I've ever studied: Halbert, Carlton, Kennedy, pretty much everyone talks about the importance of having door to door experience when you're entering the copywriting world because all it is is salesmanship in print. All righty, so Vitaly I know you're busy writing copy for Elite Marketing Pro. You're the head honcho over there. You're responsible for all their sales letters, emails, scripts, and everything, so it's a handful I'm sure. But the question I'm wondering is if anyone wants to work with you, maybe anyone wants to hire you to write their copy, or maybe they want you to consult them on their work right now or anything else out there related to helping other people make money. Do you do any kind of work consulting copywriting? Do you take on any clients and if so, how would anyone go find more information about that as well as find a way to work with you?
Vitaly Grinblat: Outside of Elite Marketing Pro currently I am not taking on any customers or any clients. I have another project that I'm working on, but I do have a website where people, if they're interested they can kind of follow what I'm doing. It's at SuccessThread.com and it's pretty much geared for home business entrepreneurs and network marketers, but you can check out what I'm doing with that and if I ever do open up spots for consulting or anything like that I'll be letting people on my list know about it.
Igor Kheifets: Nice. All right. So you heard him guys. It's SuccessThread.com if you wanna check out what Vitaly has got going on right now, but don't expect much because he is very busy making Elite Marketing Pro a lot of money which he has been for the last 10 years. So with that said I just wanted to thank you again for taking the time to rap with me about List Building, email marketing, direct response. It's probably one of those things I can talk about just for hours and days on end, even if I'm not getting paid for it.
Vitaly Grinblat: Me too! Me too!
Igor Kheifets: Yeah. I can tell. I can tell. You had a lot to say today and probably not the last time that we're gonna be inviting you on the show. You know exactly what you're talking about. You've got years of experience behind your belt. You've got tons and tons of winners and controls and just overall a wealth of knowledge when it comes to email marketing. So Vitaly, thank you very much for being here and until next time we chat, have a good one.
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