How the World’s Best Marketers Build Million-Dollar Lists with Brian Kurtz

I’m Igor Kheifets, and this is The ListBuilding Lifestyle. The podcast is for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures, travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my best selling book, the list building lifestyle Confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com
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0:53 Igor Kheifets

Welcome back to the ListBuilding Lifestyle, I’m your host, Igor Kheifets, and today I have the privilege of speaking with the true titan of direct response marketing, someone who’s not just studied the greats, but worked alongside them to build some of the most successful marketing campaigns in history. If you’ve ever studied sales copy, list building your customer acquisition, this man’s name has to be on your reader, and it probably came up!

He’s spent over 30 years at Boardroom Inc. He’s managed nine figure marketing budgets, sent over 1.2 billion pieces of direct mail, and worked with some of the greatest copywriters of all time, including Eugene Schwartz, Gary Bencivenga, Dan Kennedy and Jay Abraham. He is also the author of two essential books for anyone serious about Marketing and Entrepreneurship. His first book “Over Deliver”, is a master class on how to create marketing that stands the test of time by focusing on relationships, trust and the long game. In it, he reveals the secrets of the greatest direct response marketers and how to apply their timeless principles to the digital world.

He also co-author of “The Advertising Solution”, which is a deep-dive into the strategies of six of the most legendary marketers, Claude Hopkins, Eugene Schwartz, David Ogilvy, John Caples, Robert Collier and Gary Halbert. Today as the founder of “Titans Marketing”, he teaches high level entrepreneurs, how to master direct response principles and apply them in the digital age. Welcome to the show, Brian Kurtz!

02:17 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Thank you Igor, one small correction, “Advertising Solution” came before “Over Deliver”, and it actually inspired me to write “Over Deliver”. And interestingly, “The Advertising Solution”, which does profile those six legends, was brought to me, almost as a complete manuscript by Craig Simpson, who’s a direct mail savon. And he said, “You know, I want to do this book, you’re the only person I would do it with. Otherwise, I’ll do it myself”. And when someone said, “Flattery doesn’t work on everyone, but it works on me”. So, you know, I got that from Mark Ford, and I thought this would be great, you know, he did all the heavy lifting. I definitely made the book a lot better. And he admits that, because I reformatted it, I put bullets, you know, checklists. It becomes like a Marketing Checklist kind of book.

But after I finished it, I got feedback from some of my mentors, like Jay Abraham and Perry Marshall, and they said “It’s a good book!”. And they wrote good testimonials for it, but, and this is a good lesson in getting testimonials and how you position a book. But they both said, a few people said to me, they go, “Brian, really good book, but it’s not you, like it’s not written in your voice”. There are things that are my voice inside the book. Not that Craig has a bad voice, but it wasn’t my voice.

And I realized that now I’m on the hook, because if I don’t do a book that’s my voice, I will disappoint my mentors, and I’ve spent my whole career, not disappointing my mentors and also continuing to learn from them. And so, that got me going with, you know, developing “Over Deliver”, which was basically started with my blog post of, you know, six or seven years and putting them together with a developmental editor. And I just think that, you know, everybody listening to this call today or watching this, should really just think about what they have to share with the world

04:19 Igor Kheifets

Yeah, there’s lots of really good points there, and I agree, I believe there’s a book in everyone. I just think that people have different formats in which they like to communicate. For me, for many years, it was a big challenge to try and squeeze a book out of me. Although I’ve done thousands of webinars, I’ve written tens of thousands of emails

04:39 The guest, Brian Kurtz

So your book was written basically! Yeah!

04:42 Igor Kheifets

Like, I blogged for like, a full year every day, you know, minimum, 500 words every day. So, there was plenty of content there. It’s just (Yeah) You know, when you think about it in the frame of a book, your brain freezes sometimes like, “Oh, I’m not an author!” But I find the same to be true about many people when it comes to lists, when it comes to mailing their lists, they’re afraid to email the list, like they can write an email to a friend, they can write like a customer support complaint email, but they won’t write, like one quote, a marketing email to save their life, because they’re just so afraid of it. 11:47

05:16 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, great points Igor! It’s so interesting that, you know, the idea of not being afraid of writing, like, everybody doesn’t have to write a book, but everybody needs to write! Either a journal or to yourself. And the interesting thing is that, when I was thinking about writing “Over Deliver”, I had, like I said, four or five years of blog posts, and my blog posts are a lot longer than 500 words, to the chagrin of many of my subscribers, “Brian, these are too long!” But I tell stories, I go off on tangents. It’s just my writing style! And I said, “Oh, I’ll just take the blogs and I’ll shove them between two covers, and that’ll be good! And every blog will be a chapter”.

And I was on it, I was on a podcast with somebody like you, somebody, you know, smart, who’s been in the business for a while, and -Great guy, His name is Tom Marcus- and I remember the conversation. He said, “Brian, don’t do that!” You need to, like, weave the thing. It’s got to have interstitials, The whole book should be a story, and you can do that!” I said, “How do I do that?” He says, “You have to hire a developmental editor”.And I remember I found a woman, she was amazing! We spent two days in a hotel suite, I actually printed out all of my blogs.

So, I was able to create the chapters of “Over Deliver” by sorting my blog post. And then it got easier and easier once we started working together with the editor, and that’s how the book became. You know, Gene Schwartz, one of the great copywriters of all time, a mentor of mine, wrote “Breakthrough Advertising” Written in 1966, it’s as relevant today as it was then, And he used to say, “You know, I don’t write copy, I assemble copy!” And I always love that quote, because the idea of assembling copy is how I think about it, like when I did my book, but also like, the first thing he would ask me, like, I had the best list, we had the best list at Boardroom to sell our book.

So, I didn’t have to worry about -and we’ll get into list selection shortly, I’m sure- But I had the best list, and I hand him a book, like a health book, and I’d say, “Gene write me a package or a sales letter for this health book”, his first question every time -And after a while, I anticipated the question- His first question was, “Brian, what’s not in the book?” Meaning, are there things that are on the cutting room floor, that the editors didn’t approve for this book, that might have been the most cutting edge things which I can write even better copy for? I mean, that’s the way he thought. I mean, that’s like six steps ahead, right? As a copywriter. copywriting is not a commodity. And I struggle with people who write me, I get emails all the time. “Brian, can you recommend a good copywriter?” It’s not like recommending a painter, you know, to paint your house. It’s not like recommending a plumber to fix your pipes. Those people have to be vetted, of course. But copywriting -and I marvel at it, because anybody who has that magic, that can get people, you know, stimulated, as Martin Edelston, my mentor and the founder of Boardroom, used to say, “You got to make your prospects vibrate”. And you know anybody who can make them vibrate and then reach into their wallet and pull out their credit card, that’s magic!

I work with every great copywriter. That’s my claim to fame! You know, I’ve worked with every great copywriter who’s been alive, during my 45 years in the business. And now, you know, with AI and ChatGPT and all of that, that’s not a replacement for copywriting. And you know, the idea that Kevin Rogers, who’s a great coach for copywriters, he runs a company called Copy Chief, he did a blog post -I love this. subject line- he said, “You either have to be the best or you’re a bot!” And so it’s the best versus the bots. And what does it mean to be the best over a bot? You know, there’s work involved in it, and now it’s harder, because you can get workman like, copy out of ChatGPT, you can put it up and probably make some sales, but that’s not world class copy! World class copy comes from the world class copywriters, my regular blog post, I don’t use ChatGPT, I always write it from scratch. Maybe I’m being stubborn when I say that, but it’s not that I’m too old to change. It’s that, I want to know that I put my blood, sweat and tears into this with no assistance. That may be just stubborn! I admit that! But I do use ChatGPT for certain types of blog posts that I need more workman like copy. But, when I’m writing for my heart, I’m writing for my heart! And that’s the way I’m going to do it till I die. I just know it!

 Igor Kheifets

I think we’re both a little bit too, maybe it’s not too old, but so experienced and demanding with copy 

You are a lot younger than me, But you are wise beyond your years, because it took me a lot longer to get where you are now.

10:40 Igor Kheifets

Well, you didn’t have access to all the internet, and, you know.

10:43 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, I don’t like to use that as an excuse. I think I was just a little, I was a slow learner, and I had money, so I would pay to learn it. You know, I’d be in masterminds, and, you know, slow learners with money can really (The best for masterminds) Yeah, they are, you don’t leave. I am all in on the masterminds, I pay for, and the people who are in my masterminds, if they’re slow learners with money, I like them.

11:08 Igor Kheifets

Yeah! So, what I mean by that, though, is not so much the age, it’s the amount of years invested in copy, in all work related to copy

11:19 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Right, and it’s not one year’s experience, It’s one year’s experience cumulatively over years. So if you do the same thing every year, you could have 40 years of one year’s experience, but 40 years of cumulative experience is mind boggling when you think about it. And yeah, whatever you have 20, 25 years or whatever,

11:39 Igor Kheifets

Oh,probably no! Less, I’d say fifteenish maybe, but still, enough years to look at what ChatGPT produces and say, “Dude, this is crap, and I don’t like that!”. The other day, I was working a new webinar, and I was, I don’t like to start from scratch, so I tend to study a lot of material by other copywriters, and kind of keep them in open mind as far as with the content I consume. But then I go to ChatGPT, or more recently, to the new Chinese DeepSeek

12:14 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, I’m just looking at that now, It’s wild!

12:18 Igor Kheifets

It’s pretty good! And (yeah) I basically make it give me ideas! So, I say, “This is the product. And you know, I want you to take on a role of an experienced direct response copywriter with a neck to produce angles and etc”. And, you know, “Let’s do angles! Show me two angles at a time, and I’ll tell you which ones I like and which ones they don’t”. And what I find is the first wave of material that it throws my way is usually regurgitated, It’s boring!

12:46 The guest, Brian Kurtz

It’s coming from the internet (yeah) it’s what’s been done! Yeah.

12:50 Igor Kheifets

It’s beaten to death. And I tell ChatGPT, and I say, “Look, if it can describe at least three other offers in the same industry, do not give it to me!” And it still won’t listen to me. It keeps throwing the same crap my way. So I just have to fight

13:05 The guest, Brian Kurtz

It’s also like platitudes , and it’s like repetitive and, yeah

13:09 Igor Kheifets

Extremely repetitive (Yeah) The most annoying thing is you tell it not to do something, it says, okay, and immediately does it! I just want to shoot it! I just want to, like, throw my laptop out the window when it does that. But, every now and again, it’ll throw out something, like some sort of hint or word or frame that’ll get me go and be like, “Oh, wait, this is good, and then you can flow with it and explore it and get better idea (Yes, exactly). So, I like it as a tool that allows you to never start from scratch, effectively beating writer’s block.

13:44 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, I mean, and I don’t believe in writer’s block, and that’s because I learned from Gene Schwartz, who, you know, used the pomodero method, you know, in terms of Pomodoro technique, where, you know, he’s used (25 minutes work, and five minutes) Yeah, I have an egg timer on my desk.

14:02 Igor Kheifets

Oh, I broke a timer just like it by twisting it the other way when I was angry. So

14:18 The guest, Brian Kurtz

You know what! This is the fifth, sixth year renewal bonus for Titans Xcelerator! And if this interview goes well, I’ll send you one as my gift. (Appreciated) Yeah. And I also follow as far as writer’s block goes. It’s an interesting topic, because I wrote a blog post “The Cure For Writer’s Block”, and there’s no cure for it, but John Carlton, the great, longtime copywriter, who’s got courses on copy, just a wonderful guy, brilliant!

14:39 Igor Kheifets

He was the first guest on the show.

14:41 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Really! He’s amazing guy! (Yeah) He’s just, he comes off as crusty, but he’s got a huge heart. And he talks about being mindful of everything around you. It sounds simple, right? But he says, and this goes back to

15:02 Igor Kheifets

I think he mentions the marine that he met in the bar.

15:05 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, And he also met a tennis, he was on a tennis court and he noticed something going on in the time to get the situation. But you can blog ideas, and ideas to write are all around you (Yeah) In fact, you know, Dan Kennedy, the great marketing guru says, you know, he talks about marketing by walking around, but there’s copywriting by walking around too. And by walking around, you can either physically walk around on the outside, which you always should do, especially if you can go into places like, you know, stores where your customers might be, that you might want to write to, or you spend time walking around on on the internet, you know, you go spy in on, you know, forums and groups where your audience hangs out, and see what the language that they’re using, see the stories that they’re telling.

You’re going to come up with ideas as long as you’re engaged with the world. It sounds so simple, right? Because I think, there are a lot of people who write, and they are content writers more than copy Creative Copywriters. But I think all writers, they think they’re going to put their headphones on, maybe do the Pomodoro Technique and focus in on, you know, the topic or task at hand, and then they’ll be done, and they’ll get something written that way! But you know what? You gotta be out there getting ideas. And it seems simple, but

16:31 Igor Kheifets

I think content writers don’t understand that, because they don’t need to sell ideas. As a copywriter, you have to tap into an existing desire, just like Gene Schwartz says

16:40 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Right, desire is out there, You don’t create the desire!

16:43 Igor Kheifets

But you have to do it, by presenting something that seems like new, and you mentioned the word “fascination”, it’s new and exciting! (Exactly!) And so, you can’t do it by describing, so you oftentimes have to find an old idea, because very few ideas are truly new when it comes to solutions (right) but you have to present it in a new and exciting way. And most content writers don’t need to do that. They just write content about whatever the topic is, you know (Yeah) they’re writing about corporate law, that’s what they write about! But as a copywriter, you know, you have to go way beyond that, and it’s a different flavor of writing.

17:19 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, that’s why “Breakthrough Advertising” is such an amazing book, because Eugene breaks down all of that, by the level of awareness of your audience and the level of sophistication of your audience. So you know, someone might be problem-aware. They might be aware of the problem they’re having, but they have no idea what the solution is, and so if you can identify that audience, and you can come up with the solution and not just ram it down their throat. You got to do it with poetry! You know, that’s what copywriters are, so amazing! They finesse it.

And there’s a video of Eugene presenting, and he started, he says, “I don’t get writer’s block!” And I believe him! because he had a system of, and he was a big walking on the outside guy, he read everything, which is another thing! You got to read a ton to be a great copywriter, or to really understand direct marketing. And he read things like from academic journals, like the most boring, dry stuff, and his favorite magazine was the National Enquirer, which, if those people don’t know what it is, it’s, you know, kind of a rag, you know, not a rag in terms of, I mean, it’s readable, it’s, it’s gossip stuff and but that’s what people are reading! And he wants to know what they said.

I do have a quote of his, It’s like, “If you don’t spend at least -I don’t know- two hours a day thinking about your market and the people that you want to write to, You’re finished basically!” You got to think about what they’re reading. And that’s why you go into forums and you go to Amazon and look at the five star and one star reviews of the books they’re reading. Because, as he says, right at the beginning of “Breakthrough Advertising”, “The copywriter doesn’t create desire. The desire is already in the marketplace, and it’s the copywriter’s job to, like finesse it! Like to identify it, and then write about it”. And then he goes into “Breakthrough Advertising” all of the awareness and sophistication levels, because you got to write to different audiences different ways. And he was writing before the internet.

I mean, if Eugene was alive today, he would love the idea of pinpointing copy, like an email, you know, emails to a certain subsegment of awareness and just go with them with a particular approach. And that’s why it kills me that, you know, a lot of people who are online all the time, that they’re okay with one size fits all email or messages, even on Facebook.

You know, you can segment your audience, and you should have different messages for different audiences. That goes without saying. I did it in direct mail to some degree. Which is a lot harder to do, because we’re paying postage and printing, and the segments that you mail to, with direct mail is that you pay higher postage when you segment test panels, as they call them. So it wasn’t easy to do creative to different elements of your list. Lists are the backbone of any marketing program,constantly reminding myself that lists are people too. And you know, lists are not just names on a paper! And not only they are not names on a paper, everyone is individual, you have to put them in segments of course, you know, whether by sex, by income, by interest area. And you go deep into sophistication, and you know the areas that Eugene Schwartz covers and “breakthrough Advertising’,

But I mean, you should always be writing to one person, Dean Jackson, one of the great marketers. I just saw him last week in a mastermind, and he talks about this concept, which is, one that’s been around for a while. But he pinpointed it. He said, “When you’re writing an email” . . And you talked about it too, Igor, when you said, you know, writing emails to your friends is the same thing as writing promotional emails to, not exactly! But you have to think about, what are you trying to accomplish, what’s your objective. And the only way to do that is to write to an individual.

Like, I try to get even a face in my mind of someone who, you know, represents whom I’m writing to, and that’s why, you know, your list is your online family! And they will give you feedback. And you know, these days open rates are not only overrated, but they’re irrelevant to some degree!But the key number is clicks! So you have to have, you know, really good content that they can click to. And used to be clicks were eyeballs, and everybody said That’s bullshit. Now clicks is a much better metric, and the best metric is engagement! You know, I mean, I encourage engagement with my list. It’s like I make some, you know, point about some concept, and I say, What do you think? Give me your case history, and if I get some good ones, I’ll share it in a future blog, which I do. So the idea of encouraging engagement all the time, and not just, you know, talk at them and preach at them and lecture them, you know, that’s a way to create a list building lifestyle or a family building lifestyle that, you know, enriches both your audience and yourself.

Because sometimes people say like, I mean, they call bullshit on me, and I take it seriously, not as an insult, not as like They’re being annoying, I take it in as fact first, and I say, Okay, if I take it in as fact, you know, how can I use this? And I say the same thing with, you know, with both my books, but definitely “Over Deliver” You know, I’ve read every one star review multiple times. I’ve gotten six one star reviews out of like, 320 or 350 reviews

Those six, I actually did a blog post, and I cited each of the six one star reviews, not getting defensive, because my point was, if you take it in as fact, even if it is in fact, it’s still subjective, but take it in as fact, you’ll learn so much more from it. And so, every one of the six had a point. Did I agree with them? No, not totally! One of them, I really agreed with 100%, he said one of the chapters in my book was too repetitive, and it’s true!

24:13 Igor Kheifets

Is that really a reason to give a one star review, though?

24:16 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, it’s weird, because I don’t think he got past chapter two. So, he gave the whole book a one star review. So, that’s the problem! But, his point about chapter two, that it’s repetitive, and it was all about original source, you know, where babies come from, basically, you know, everything is fundamental, you know, bedrock, rules of thumb and marketing eternal truths, that everything is built on. You said it already, you said, what’s been invented that’s new, right? But it’s a build! You build on it. And I repeated it over and over again in different words, and he actually cited every time I did it. So, it was a brutal review to read!

Yeah! They have a lot of time on their hands. But it was so instructional for me, you know, it was so wonderful. In fact, the subject line was, “Haters gonna hate, so love them!” And that’s how I live my life, you know, I mean to get defensive immediately. that’s just not going to be productive! Now, eventually, you know, in my private moments, I might say that that guy is a jerk for doing that for other reasons, but I take it in as fact initially, and then see how it plays out. I’ve prided myself over blogging for, I guess 12 years or 11 years, that I respond to every email!

Now, a lot of people, who are, you know, have much bigger lists and much bigger followings, can’t do that, but most people can, and They don’t. And I think it’s a mistake! Can I prove that by doing that I’ve made more money? I think so! Maybe not on one email, that I get more money, because someone bought something, because I engage with them! But I think in the aggregate, I’m constantly responding and engaging and being with people. So I believe that, you know, if you’re one of my subscribers, and you write to me, and I engage with you, and nothing happens after that! This is where I get a little spiritual! I say, you know, “It’s just good karma! You’re putting good karma in the world”.

So, I might get something from a different direction, from someone else, and I’ll take it, and that might be, it’s not directly related to, you know, putting out the good karma all the time, but I’d rather put out good karma all the time than put no karma. And certainly you don’t want to put out bad karma! But no karma gets you nowhere! At least good karma might end up being. And I do have people who are in my online family, who have bought stuff from me. And it’s not all about the money, either, but you know, ultimately, everybody’s in business to make money. And so, there are people that, you know, after three years of being in my online family, actually buy something, and then they tell me about it! They say, “I’ve been, reading your stuff for three years, I love you” Really complimentary! “And I finally bought “Breakthrough Advertising” -or I finally bought “Over Deliver”, And I just thanked them profusely! I say, some people take their time, That’s fine! I’m patient. I say, I usually make a comment, like, I’ve been patient with you, and I’m glad I was! you know, and sometimes people will write to me and go, “Is this really you, Brian?” Like, they really assume that I would never respond to their emails off a blog post.So just that always makes my day when they’re surprised! And then I have to reiterate, “Yes, it’s ME!” You know.

Look, all of this takes time, you know, it’s time consuming, but I don’t know, what else am I doing besides engaging with the universe! What else am I doing besides wanting to teach direct response principles to a new generation? That’s my mission! So if that’s my mission, I need to be consistent in terms of how I engage with my audience. So I’m not preaching to anybody to do this, and I’m not lecturing anybody to do this, but I’m the subject of your podcast today. Your podcast is titled ListBuilding Lifestyle, and that’s my lifestyle! And that’s how I build my list, not just build it, but, you know, I keep them engaged, and they stay on my list! They don’t unsubscribe, they don’t leave me. And that’s a good thing, if I want to have a list that stands the test of time!

28:51 Igor Kheifets

Indeed! All right, Well, you’re very good at going on, you know, on your own, very cool!

28:58 The guest, Brian Kurtz

I know! you can also say that I don’t shut up. But that’s okay!

29:02 Igor Kheifets

Oh! No, It’s very convenient for a host (For a host, yes) I had a list of all these questions, I didn’t even need to ask them, like you sort of accidentally went into half of them anyway!

29:12 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yes, is there one that you absolutely wanted to ask that I didn’t answer? Because

29:15 Igor Kheifets

Actually, I want to do something else. So, this is an idea from my editor, and she thought it’d be a great idea to do some rapid fire questions with you (Okay) which means you can’t go on and answer them in your usual fashion, where you just go! (Yeah) It has to be quick!

29:33 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Okay, I promise I’ll be quick on these.

29:35 Igor Kheifets

So, we have seven questions, right? So I’ll fire the question and you give us like a one or two statement answer, okay? (okay) So, question number one, what’s the best headline you’ve ever seen?

29:54 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Off the top of my head, I’ll give you two, “What Never to Eat on an Airplane” (Sure, classic) Classic! And then “Read This or Die” from Jim Rutz, I mean, I just know that they work too, so that’s why I’m using those. But

30:09 Igor Kheifets

What was the “Read This or Die” about?

30:12 The guest, Brian Kurtz

It was a health newsletter, I believe, written by Jim Rutz. But it was, you know, it was basically a lot of fear and a lot of stuff, but it was powerful and I did a swipe file of all Jim Rutz’s products, and the name of the product is “Read This or Die” (Of course) the lost files of Jim Rutz, yeah! (How symbolic!) I got one more headline. This is too good! (Okay) “How Doctors Don’t Get Sick While They’re Around Sick People all Day”. It’s something like that, Parris Lampropoulos, yeah. So, it’s like, how do doctors stay well while being around sick people all day? I thought that was a great one!

30:59 Igor Kheifets

That is a great one, Awesome! (Okay) So, question number two, what’s one book? By the way, Parris is an amazing copywriter! (He is a great friend, too. I was at his mastermind) He was just brilliant! (Yeah, top shelf) Also so cool, like he’s so smooth, and just to talk to him is just! Being in his presence is just! (Yeah! I love Parris). So what’s the one book every marketer, shoot or copywriter or list guy, etc, should read besides your own?

31:29 The guest, Brian Kurtz

So, “Breakthrough Advertising” for sure, not just because I sell it, but because it is an advanced text, so it’s not the first book folks should read. Now, Eugene Schwartz has another book called “The Brilliance Breakthrough”, which is how to write, writing promotion, but just how to write, picking the right word for every occasion. And then, I think if you want to go into direct response marketing, an older book is Bob Stones, successful direct marketing methods. It’s a little dated because it doesn’t have a lot about the internet, but it gives you those fundamental truths. And then I would also say, like, “Scientific Advertising” by Claude Hopkins is one that everybody should read. Ogilvy “advertising”, Robert Collier’s letter book, which is a snooze! So if you don’t want to read that, get my book, “The Advertising Solution”, I know I was supposed to use my book, but we summarized Collier’s book succinctly, so you don’t have to read 500 pages, that is kind of dry! That’s a good sampling of like classics that stand the test of time. I mean, I think “The Ultimate Sales Letter” by Dan Kennedy is a classic, I have in my “Over Deliver”, my reading list. I think I have, like, 300 books. So, I just went off the top of my head!

33:03 Igor Kheifets

Okay, good! That was a great one book answer! So, question (I can’t resist) I know, question number three, what’s one piece of advice copywriters should stop following?

33:17 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Oh, I think, thinking that you can write for anything, would be a really interesting one, like the idea that when you’re starting as a copywriter, go deep, not wide! You know, narrow to wide.

33:32 Igor Kheifets

All right, what’s your favorite sales letter of all time, and what makes it so powerful?

33:38 The guest, Brian Kurtz

It’s an easy one to say, because it’s so formulaic. But you know, The Two Men, the Wall Street Journal (Right!) Martin Conroy. I mean, it popped into my head because we were talking about it at Parris’s mastermind last week, and Paris was talking about how everything is a formula, right? And so, you can narrow down anything into the same formula, basically. And that one is a classic formula that will work time and again. You know, changing the names, changing the situations, or whatever. And you know, it stands the test of time.

I’m trying to think of one that we did. I mean, one of my favorites is “Twelve Smiling Swindlers”, which was a magalog written by Eric Betuel, who’s one of our great copywriters. And it’s so neat, because swindlers, you would think, are like, crooks, right? And the “Twelve Smiling Swindlers” are your accountant, your lawyer, the car repairman, because we were, like, a bloodhound kind of package, which we used to do at Boardroom, which was, you know, we’re the bloodhound! We’re going to seek out all the people trying to rip you off. And so, it’s a great conceptual thing, the bloodhound approach. And one of my favorite bloodhound packages was “Twelve Smiling Swindlers”, So that popped into my head!

35:06 Igor Kheifets

Interesting! Yeah, that does sound real powerful, I think, yeah, Bencivenga had something like that, where he had four politicians, the Wall Street Broker.

35:21 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Gary Bencivenga, also had one with us. It was called, “The Little Black Book of Secrets”, and it was amazing! It was a logbook, It was a 64 page promotion, in like a little booklet size, amazing package! just, it’s a work of art! It really is!

35:43 Igor Kheifets

All right, what’s the biggest marketing mistake you’ve ever made, and what did you learn from it?

35:50 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Two, one is, and I’ve written about them. One is reading my own press clippings, and so we went into the infomercial business in 2004, and we were told that one out of 20 infomercials work. Infomercials are 28 and a half minute TV promotions. They’re not as popular today because of all the electronics that are involved in zapping commercials, but it basically looks like a TV show for 28 and a half minutes, but it’s a promotion. So, one out of 20 were going to work, and we had three out of four work immediately.

And so, I was like, I got this! I’ve mastered this shit! And we went on to do nine more infomercials, and each one was more disastrous than the next, and we spent more money on the other ones too. So, you know, and there were a lot of details about this, I tell it all in my book, so I don’t go into the details -I’m supposed to have a short answer here- But it’s, Don’t read your press clippings! You know, “The king is dead. Long live the king!” So, you know, you got a winner and the lesson learned is powerful! Like, as soon as you have a winner, the first thing you need to do is beat it like, you know, and that’s Gary Bencivenga, that was his rule of thumb. “Oh, I got the control? I got the winner? Now I have to figure out how to beat it immediately! You don’t just rest on it!” And it’s a big mistake that online marketers make. They think that they will win. And John Carlton talks about this, you know, A winning promotion is not a business! You know, you have a winning promotion now, you have to get a winner on top of the winner, “It’s like the king is dead. Long live the king”, So that’s that! And then quickly the other one, I won’t go into the other one! The other one is a little more dicey, and it takes too long to discuss, so I’ll go with it. I read my press clippings and it slapped me!

37:53 Igor Kheifets

All right, if you could only use one persuasion technique and copy what would it be?

37:58 The guest, Brian Kurtz

The word that, and it’s terrible that the first word that came into my head was”Fear”! But “Fear with integrity”, I’d say, which I’m making up. But I think that you need to get people’s attention, you know, and so, I was just having a discussion with somebody about an estate planning product, which is something that nobody wants to think about. It’s not sexy. And the only way to get their attention, even when they’re 50 or 60 years old and they don’t have an estate plan, is to tell them horror stories!

And so I’m gonna say “Fear”, but not like, just scare the shit out of them for the sake of scaring the shit out of them! I think this isn’t a technique, but it’s basically, maybe it’s paranoia! You know, we had shirts printed up at the Boardroom from a venture capitalist. And it was “Paranoia is not a psychosis, It’s survival!” So the idea of not making people paranoid, but making them aware that they should be paranoid about certain things. And so, I guess that’s a technique. I’m not proud that I just used that as the one that came into my mind! But, man, there’s so much noise in the marketplace, how do you rise above the noise? And as long as the stories, so you can tell a compelling story, that basically gets them moving in the right direction. That’s your goal, right? As a marketer or copywriter. So I’ll go with that. I’m not proud of that answer, but it’s what came into my head!

39:43 Igor Kheifets

Yeah, I think you’re, you know, assigning too much blame and guilt to that. Like for me, “Fear” has always been a big part of my success. And you know, if we kind of take it out of the scope of copy alone and persuasion, it’s also about self persuasion for me.

For many years, I used to wear a T-shirt that had a picture of a big bear chasing a guy, and beneath it said “Motivation”! (Yeah) Because to me, I grew up in a world -I’m originally from Ukraine, then grew up in Israel- So, I grew up in a world where that’s real! Like you wake up with that sense that there’s a bear coming! So, paranoia is definitely a great way to, you know, to giddy up and just go do something

40:28 The guest, Brian Kurtz

You just alleviated all my guilt, Igor, so I’m good!

40:33 Igor Kheifets

That’s, you know, as a fellow Jewish, you know, guy, I know what guilt is all about!

40:38 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, it’s like you don’t want to, like because when I’ve spoken internationally, and I get on stage like, I did a presentation in Hungary in Budapest, and you get on stage with Hungarian entrepreneurs, which is an oxymoron in itself, right? I mean, they were communists until 1989! So, these are all new entrepreneurs, basically. And I get up on stage, I’m the ugly American, right? They’re like, holding on, they’re like sitting on their hands, thinking this guy’s gonna rip me off! That was the sense I got.

Now, I did warm them up to me, because you can see I’m just a gleeful, warm guy, but, they were a tough audience to get to warm up. And so, you know, I didn’t have to scare them. In fact, I went the other way. And that was, I basically said, you know, you can dial up or dial down your intensity when you’re selling, the key was being congruent and consistent with who you are, so that there’s no mistaking what your intentions are, and you make them known early on. You’re not trying to hide stuff, all of that! And being transparent.

I’d say another one, another technique which feels even better than, well, not better than fear, but transparency! Like tell the truth! Like tell the evil! And it’s got, You don’t want to lie about your story! But your story about, you know, growing up in Israel and Ukraine could be part of (It Is a sales letter, It is!) Okay! yeah, so that

42:13 Igor Kheifets

I show pictures of the city center, and I show photos from attending the Air Force Academy and everything! (Exactly!) No, it’s interesting, because _Sorry to cut you there, but_ (No, that’s okay) A lot of people mentioned that. So, when they talked to us about why they decided to work with me, they mentioned that, oh, Igor, you know, something about a story. Or Igor mentioned he was in the Air Force and I was in the Air Force. Or Igor is an immigrant, and, you know, I’m an immigrant. And so, these affinity points eventually become reasons to do business with me. I don’t think, on their own, they do the selling, No!

42:53 The guest, Brian Kurtz

No, you’re a package (Yeah) That’s a good one, actually, just truthful transparency. And transparency should always be truthful! but I only say truthful transparency because there’s a lot of bad transparency, because it’s not really transparency on the internet, especially (Yeah) So

43:11 Igor Kheifets

I think there’s a lot of power as well to calling out, like you did in Hungary, kind of calling out what you know they’re thinking, a negative thing, kind of like a Nail in The Room Technique,

43:22 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, overcoming objections, all of that. Yeah!

43:25 Igor Kheifets

Just saying , Look, I know that’s what you’re thinking.

43:28 The guest, Brian Kurtz

I did exactly, I said, I’m the ugly American, and I’m not gonna rip you off, I promise! You know, that kind of thing. And I basically talked about why marketing is not evil! That’s why, that’s how I started the presentation.

43:44 Igor Kheifets

I think that should be taught in itself, as a course or coaching program. People just really think that marketers are evil.

43:53 The guest, Brian Kurtz

No! I got marketing as evil. And then, I went into marketing isn’t everything, it’s the only thing! And I discussed that, and then I went into specialization. And what we talked about, the narrow to wide concept, that everybody in that room, whether you’re Hungarian, whether you’re Dutch, whether you’re American, whether you’re African, Japanese, everybody wants to make money! Everybody wants to make a difference in the world! And without marketing, you got nothing!

44:22 Igor Kheifets

Yeah! You know, I got a great story -real quick before moving to the final question- about the whole, there was just a point we were talking about, for some reasons, escaping me, having a brain fart. (No, you’re like} Dude, I’ve told you, I’m old! So, it’s the onset of Alzheimer’s, I’m sure! Yeah. So anyway, I went to this -here’s the story- I went to this dinner. Several Jewish families got together for a Shabbat dinner. It was a great time! Everyone had a great time. It was fun, It was loud, you know, we did everything, did the candles, the breaking hollow, the prayer, everything! Although I’m not religious, it was still a very nice community, kind of like a feel.

And I was barely I was, like, maybe one year into my life in Canada, and then, all of a sudden I’m not getting invited anymore! And through somebody else who attends these dinners, I was told that the reason I wasn’t getting invited is because the host googled me, found out that I was an internet marketer and thought that I was a scammer and therefore wouldn’t invite me! (Unbelievable!) Can you believe that? So that’s what I’m saying. They have to teach that marketing is not evil. Marketers are not evil, you know (There are evil marketers!) There are, yeah, but there’s also evil lawyers and the “Twelve Swindlers” There’s evil everywhere!

45:47 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Exactly, the world is evil! So, you have to be a high integrity, high transparency marketer, and that’s how I teach! I emphasize that more when I teach internationally, like when I taught in Japan, Germany, Holland, Italy. I’ve done a lot of presentations internationally, and that’s been my approach all the time. So we can get on the same wavelength. As you said, I need to knock down their preconceived notions.

Some of them, I didn’t need to, some of them were already doing marketing. So, it wasn’t like everybody in the audience, but I went at least common denominator, just to make sure we were all on the same page. And I’m going to be transparent with you, you can trust me, but I’m going to show you why you can trust me, I did it! I showed them my examples of my career and how I did it. And you don’t just want to tell them, you want to show them!

46:42 Igor Kheifets

Indeed, that’s a whole other principle. (Yeah, show versus tell) I was literally explaining this to an 18 year old kid yesterday, of how he should talk to women, because he’s a football player, like a soccer player. So he’s very aggressive, and he’s also very masculine. So the way guys talk to each other! We just stay direct (Yeah) We don’t sugar coat it. We don’t pussyfoot around! If I want to say something, I’ll just say it (Right) And I told him, “Look, you can’t be like that with women, especially when you’re just starting to date them, because you’re gonna scare them away” (Yeah) It’s like, show, don’t tell! It’s like, “What is that?” “It’s like, well, you know, you can say that there’s an attractive woman, right? Entering an elevator, or you can say a guy wearing a trench-coat and a hat is riding down in the elevator on the second floor, the elevator stops a woman walks in with red hair, red lips and red dress, and the guy goes, like, perks up a little bit and takes off his hat. So that’s how you say that all of a sudden!” (That’s a good example! That’s good!) I read. It’s not mine by any means. (That’s okay) Yeah. But it’s like, “show, don’t tell” is an incredibly powerful degree, (Really, absolutely) And I find it to be so important in parenting, for instance. Because, with my 12 year old daughter, just saying things like giving her advice just doesn’t work (No, they don’t want to hear it) No, they don’t! And they think you don’t know anything.

48:10 The guest, Brian Kurtz

So they have to see you in action! They have to see you performing. I mean, yeah, it doesn’t stop Igor! No?) My son is 35, he still doesn’t take my advice. So, Yeah, your daughter might be better than him. So who knows?

48:28 Igor Kheifets

I don’t know, but it’s really tough! You know, I’ve lived life, I’m telling my daughter, I’m like, I played this video game you’re playing right now. You know, like, you’re going through levels and trying to acquire skills that I’ve already, like, passed this level. Let me tell you how it’s like (Yeah) Dad, you don’t understand!

48:44 The guest, Brian Kurtz

They’ll hear it from someone else, not you, probably!

48:46 Igor Kheifets

Yes, right? (Yeah) Damn it twices (Yeah) Last question, What’s one piece of marketing advice that you believe more people need to hear, but almost no one talks about?

48:59 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Because everybody is selling, and you need to make money. I have a phrase that says, “Everything in business and in life is not a revenue event, but everything is a relationship event” And so, the corollary to that is something I learned from Dan Sullivan, a strategic coach, and Joe Polish, which is, you know, there are basically five ways you get paid, and the fifth is cash!

And I think that, you know, there’s so many other ways to get paid -And I’m doing air quotes if you don’t see me- and I don’t think, I mean, a lot of people do talk about that, but when you’re in action, like you’re doing something, and you become a slave to the payday. And I’m not saying people shouldn’t make money. I’m not a nonprofit! But I think that, you know, I’m patient, and I think patient marketing is something that, you know. And I think if you’re patient, your folks will stay with you longer. I’m more into renewal than a new customer, I guess is what I’m saying too! Like I’d rather have someone for three years at a lower price than the first sale, and never spies from me again! As a broad stroke.

But I’m very conscious of people being with me for the long haul. You know, chapter 10 of “Over Deliver” starts with a quote, and it’s, “Life is long!” which Marty Edelson told me, and it’s like a play on Life is short, right? But if you look at life being long, because it’s the only one you got, so whatever you got is your life, and it’s long, whatever you got!

But it’s hard, In the Broadway show Hamilton, there’s a song that, because Alexander Hamilton died very young in a duel with Aaron Burr, and the song it’s titled, “Why do You Write Like You’re Running Out of Time?” That he was running out of time. But you know, I don’t agree with that! I don’t think you should take your time. I don’t think that you need

51:22 Igor Kheifets

Oh, when you write, I think you totally should have a deadline, otherwise you’re not gonna write! I agree with you, when it comes to relationship equity, trying to push it, is really bad idea (Bad idea, yeah) Being patient is better!

51:47 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, with relationships, for sure. But I just think that when you’re living always in a frantic state, that you’re running out of time, and you’re always looking like 5, 10, years ahead. You know, Dan Sullivan teaches this, you know, if you’re looking to the horizon, try walking there. You never can get there! So, you know, the idea is to, you know, set your life up in 90 day chunks, and then turn around after 90 days and celebrate. Then you turn around again, you go another 90 days. It’s a great way to live, as opposed to always living “Someday, one day’ And so I think that, you know, I guess “Someday, one day” I just think it’s a prescription for either unhappiness or you’ll end up not having as much joy, because you’ll never be satisfied. So!

52:37 Igor Kheifets

You know, that’s such an old person’s advice! Forgive me, but it’s like, the only time you hear advice like that is from people who live their life and it can truly appreciate what they’re saying! You know, because a younger person is always like (Yeah) Especially today, with this crazy productivity culture. It’s like you have to, not only get a lot done, but you also have to travel a lot, and you have to (Yes) You know, write a book before you’re 27! And then you’ve got to buy 15 bitcoins too, and then have to, you know, investment properties. And it’s crazy!

53:13 The guest, Brian Kurtz

And that brings me to another book recommendation, “Essentialism”, great book! By Robert McCune, which is basically, well, one of the things is, everything in your life should be a hell yes or a no! And that talk, that’s a whole nother discussion about, you know, focusing on only the important things. I got a lot of six sevens and eights in my life, so I’m okay with that. Everything doesn’t have to be a 10 for me, so I’m not saying that! But if I was practicing essentialism, would I be happier? I don’t know! Maybe! I live my life the way I live it, so I can’t and I don’t really want to change! I’m stubborn like that, because a lot of the six and sevens, I get a lot of emotional value. Like responding to every email (Yeah) For example, people would say that’s a hell no! And it might be a hell no, for many people, it’s not a hell yes, for me, it’s probably a an eight or a nine, or maybe a seven! But I still do it, because I get a lot of endorphin rushes from it. I get a lot of satisfaction from it, and that’s good enough for me. But I think reading that book, at least sees where you could go and put some guard rails. I mean, if you read Dan Kennedy on time management (I literally relistening to it right now) Yeah! You don’t have to do everything he does. I don’t! (No,!) But it gives you, like, such a structure (Oh, yeah!) if you take some of it, you’ll be more productive, you’ll be probably happier (yeah) but he actually faxed me once and goes, “Brian, I know you’re out there gallivanting and doing stuff with everybody, which is, you, not me” -Or something like that- I took that as a compliment.

55:03 Igor Kheifets

Yeah, I was lucky to read that book in my early, either just before I turned 20, or in my early 20s (That’s early!) That’s super early! And I feel so lucky that I found Dan Kennedy around that age, because I was young enough to have my beliefs shaped, and I took everything he said as gospel (You got guardrails around) Yes (which is good!) Yes, And all my friends know it. They don’t call me we! I don’t use facts, but you know, they learn to send me text messages instead. No one just accidentally drops into my house. You know, for instance.

55:38 The guest, Brian Kurtz

I hate getting phone calls out of the blue, you know, people just expect you to pick it up.

55:45 Igor Kheifets

Yes, they do. And the same 18 year old I mentioned earlier, I taught him, it’s like, Look, if the phone rings, you don’t have to pick it up, because he would get physically agitated. Be like, you know, it’s ringing right here! We’re having conversation (Yeah) And I can see he’s going crazy, and it’s like, “Dude, you don’t have to pick it up. If it’s urgent, they can call 911, if they need you, really, for some they’ll text you”. I mean, it’s okay! (yeah., exactly) With Dan Kennedy, though, I love everything he put out throughout the years, even when he puts out the same thing under a different title (Yeah) that’s amazing! Still pretty good (It’s good stuff) And he’s probably the only, at this point living copywriting, copywriter|Guru, that I’m not going to get on the show, because I’m just afraid of him! You know, I’m just afraid to meet the guy!

His teachings were more valuable to me than anything that my father ever taught me, for sure! And when the news broke that he died, the fake news (The fake, Yeah) I couldn’t believe it! I sat on the side of my bed. I cried for, you know, for a little bit! And I’ve had plenty of death in my family, and I’ve, you know, been pretty cool about it. And with Dan Kennedy stuff, it was just, you know, so, yeah, definitely huge fan of Dan Kennedy, here. Pretty much I know all of his stuff by heart at this point (Yeah)

All right,So I wanted to encourage our listeners to go and get a copy of “Over Deliver” It’s available on Amazon.

57:24 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Actually, if they go to overdeliverbook.com (Oh! Okay) that would be better! Because the bonus, I wrote a book called “Over Deliver” So I over delivered on the bonuses. So, you go there, and then you go to Amazon, or Barnes and Noble, wherever you want to buy the book. Then it opens a window, and you’ll come back to the site, and it’s the better way to buy the book, because you’ll get all these 11 bonuses that are, I mean, some of them are, like, priceless stuff. It’s like amazing, full PDFs of two books by my direct mail gurus, and, you know, a Perry Marshall seminar, a Dan Kennedy swipe file, that he gave out at The Titans of Direct Response (I should have bought it there, damn it) And Gary Bencivenga had his Bencivenga’S Bullets for years, and I created a PDF of all of his bullets.

It’s an amazing bonus package just for buying the book. So if you’re going to buy the book overdeliverbook.com, and then you’re automatically going to be added to my online family. So then you get my blogs and all that! Easier, if you just don’t want to spend 20 bucks on a book and get, you know, thousands of dollars and priceless bonuses, just go to briankurtz.net, opt in, and you’ll become part of my online family, and that’ll be just as good!

58:50 Igor Kheifets

Yeah, so I’m looking at the site now overdeliverbook.com. So, don’t forget what I said, Go to overdeliverbook.com get it there, because you’re going to get 11 bonuses. The one is Titans of Direct Response. Six hours of presentations featuring David Deutsch, Brian Kurtz, Parris, I can never pronounce his last name (Lampropoulos) Ken McCarthy, who was on the show a couple of times, Greg Renker from Guthy-Renker, Joe Sugarman, he’s a legend as well (He’s passed, actually) Oh, really! Oh, wow! (Yeah) that’s a big loss to the table industry (It was) We got bonus number two, which is the Lost chapters of “Over Deliver” We’ve got “Over Deliver” copywriters toolkit (Yeah, page, swipe file) There you go, Dan Kennedy’s million dollar swipe file, “Breakthrough Advertising”, the lost interviews, Gary Bencivenga’s bullets, 19 full length keynote speeches and presentations from Jay Abraham. Jay Abrahams’ “How to Get From Where You Are to Where You Want to Be” (That’s a course that he it cost him, like, $200,000 to create. Doesn’t sell it, doesn’t do anything with it, and it’s all free on the site) Perry Marshall live. I was just at his event, actually (Yeah, I did a live event with Perry in 2013 and that’s the video of it! Full Day) “Secrets of Successful Direct Mail” by Dick Benson, and finally, “Confessions of Direct Mail Guy” by Gordon Grossman.

1:00:32 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Gordon Grossman was the guy who built the Reader’s Digest. If anybody knows what the Reader’s Digest was, but it was direct marketing heaven in the 1960s and 70s.

1:00:40 Igor Kheifets

Yeah, So one thing I got to mention before you wrap up. So first off, guys, go to overdeliverbook.com, get it there. I actually originally got it on Amazon many years ago, because like to read on Kindle, but if I knew this site existed, obviously I would go there!

Before we wrap up, I really want to say that your testimonial stack is the single most impressive testimonial stack I’ve ever seen in my life! That’s the first day I noticed about you when I started researching you. I mean, you look at your pages, it’s like, think of a top industry leader or a niche market leader, a top copywriter, a top business coach, a top guru of any kind. I think that Tony Robbins is the only guy who’s not here. Everyone else (I’ve never met Tony personally) Yeah, so it’s like the testimonial stack is just incredible!

01:01:32
Thank you! And it was basically the building of relationship capital over 35 years, at the time, 40 years. And there were some that I didn’t even make the cut for the site or for the book, but, and it’s not the quantity, it’s the quality of them (You got both going on) Oh, Dan Kennedy’s amazing.

01:01:57 Igor Kheifets

It’s like a unicorn of a testimonial. You kidding me!

01:01:59 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Yeah, Gary bencivenga’s and Jeff Walker’s and, yeah, there’s some amazing testimonials that I got. And I’m very proud of it! Bill Bonner and Mark Ford, both from agora (True) Yeah, it’s, you know, I feel blessed. So thank you for saying that!

01:02:21 Igor Kheifets

Yeah, So guys again, go to overdeliverbook.com, go to briankurtz.net to get on Brian’s list and just study what he’s got going on. If you’re an entrepreneur, want to be an affiliate marketer, a copywriter, any kind of business owner, offline, online, etc, Freelancer, doesn’t matter! Study Brian’s work. You will end up making more money, have more life satisfaction, probably build better relationships, and overall, adopt a mindset that’s going to make you more successful!

01:02:59 The guest, Brian Kurtz

Well, thank you, Igor. I hope I wasn’t on too many reruns from our first interview! There’s no other way to be, in my opinion! You know, you always have to be a student. And I get that from you too. I think you’re very much in sync like that. And that’s why I really enjoyed this interview. I’m sorry I went on too long on certain questions, but because (Over deliver, man!) Yeah, I truck it up to passion, not just being talkative, I guess.

1:03:33 Igor Kheifets

No, you over deliver! That’s a theme for sure (Thank you very much) that I can see. All right, so guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the ListBuilding Lifestyle. I had a pleasure of hosting Brian Kurtz, from briankurtz.net and from overdeliverbook.com. Go get the book, get the bonuses. It’s an incredible package! I really think it’s one of the best ones out there. So Brian, thank you for taking the time and until next time we chat. Have a good one!

01:04:02

Thank you for listening to The List Building Lifestyle, get access to the previous episodes, transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at www.listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also remember to claim your free copy of my best selling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how I made millions with list buildings starting from scratch, plus I’ll give you 3,000$ worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email swipe files and traffic blueprints. Go to www.igorsbook.com, now to claim your free package!