Cracking The Tech Paradox with Mikael Dia

I’m Igor Kheifets, and this is the list building lifestyle. The podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my bestselling book, the list building lifestyle confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus a $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now it’s time to claim your list building lifestyle

00:50

How’s it going, man? Good. Good. Since we last spoke, I spoke like a couple of months ago, I think. Yeah, it’s been and it’s been a while. Yeah.

01:00

Well, what have you been up to? Ah, just work and yeah, I mean, I was actually away on a trip. I went to Uganda for a week and eight days or so to do a gorilla trek. So, it was actually pretty easy to do. What a gorilla trek like a mountain like a mountain. Like we went deep into the mountains and went and hung out with gorillas in their natural habitat. I mean, is it safe? I mean, gorillas can be pretty wild, right? Yeah, they’re there.

01:38

They’re very habituated. And like so it was part of a tour, it was part of like a thing called a company called G adventures. They’re actually a Canadian based company.

01:49

And they put on these tours and all that stuff, these excursions. And these gorillas are quite habituated like they’re used to having people come and take videos and pictures of them so yeah, it’s but so, they are already seeing them posing in the lake. Yeah, the little ones Funny enough, like the baby gorillas love the attention, and like to kind of, you know, pose for the humans. And it’s kind of funny, actually. So, the bigger ones don’t care, but the little ones like to play around. So I got some pretty cool videos, but it is definitely interesting to see them in their natural habitat. So, you could say we basically were able to stay with them for about an hour each. Like within the family and stuff. Like we also saw chimps and all sorts of animals. But yeah, it’s definitely an experience. Certainly, going back to a zoo is not going to cut it anymore. That’s for sure. Certainly, animals now. So, don’t.

02:52

Yeah, exactly.

02:55

So, but yeah, man, it was. That’s basically what I’ve been up to. I’ve just been working and hanging out. And yeah, what about you? I went, I think since we last spoke, I just came back from Vancouver mastermind marketing’s mastermind.

03:15

I think I went to Puerto Rico.

03:20

I’ve been to Mexico. And in a few days, I’m flying out to Bulgaria.

03:26

Oh, wow. Yeah, I want to check it out. See if it’s a better place for me. Interesting. Bulgaria. very random. Well, yeah, I mean, low cost of living.

03:37

7.5% tax rate. Yeah, I mean, hey, fair. Yeah, you can drive anywhere in Europe. Good climate. We get the four seasons. We got mountains. Yeah, skiing. You got the coast if you like the beach.

03:54

A couple of hours flying distance for pretty much any place in Europe. Yeah, fair. Interesting. Especially with what’s happening in Canada. It’s certainly been getting ridiculous. It is ridiculous. It’s not, it’s not getting ridiculous. It is ridiculous. And it’s a shame. Especially you know, as a Canadian, I’m very sad with everything that’s happening. But yeah, well, we’ll see. You know, I’ve got kids. So, it makes hours things a little more challenging. But, yeah, that’s what it is. Yeah.

04:27

With the kids, especially, I’m very upset. Like, I’m very unhappy with the Canadian education system. It’s terrible. I keep taking my kids to different schools, like, this year, I’m taking them out of a private Jewish school, which didn’t live up to expectations. Yeah, taking them to a different school now, because I mean, even though they go to school, I still end up investing two or three hours into them in extracurricular activities, like math and stuff. Yeah. So, and they seem to spend more time teaching them social stuff, like they should you know, be okay with people deciding that they’re going to be a different gender stupid and actually, you know, any kind of academics, it’s, it’s, it’s So, failing, and it’s a shame. But that’s a topic for another conversation, my friend that’s a, we could if you want to go down that road for this podcast, I’m happy to I’m not sure I would love to I would love to hear his thoughts about, you know, as a father, as an entrepreneur as a father, man, I’m happy to share I like so first and foremost.

05:34

I think the whole gender thing is a little crazy. And it’s gone way too far. I think we’re in a situation now, especially as an entrepreneur, where we’re basically instilling a mindset of being, it’s okay to have your, it’s not okay to have your feelings hurt, and you should be, you should push back and you should basically everything needs to be catered to your own expectations.

06:14

And that’s just not how the world works. If you want to build a business, if you want to do anything meaningful, you’re gonna have to suffer a little bit, and you’re gonna have to go through challenges, and you’re gonna have to build up that mental toughness.

06:27

And unfortunately, we’re creating a system where not only should you get everything catered to you, but if going to life is a little challenging, you’re allowed to step away from it, you’re allowed to ask for your stress leaf and you’re allowed to start thinking that yeah, okay, that’s, if I’m not happy, then the world will have to revolve around my decisions. It. Yeah. It’s crazy. In my mind, I think the other thing to consider too is like, we’re, we’re moving into a world where facts and reality are going to be very abstract, it’s very much okay.

07:24

Do you want the world to call you because they hate them?

07:30

Let’s redefine what that actually means for you. Because your feelings are hurt that you don’t. You’re unhappy with the fact that you grew up and you were born in his body. I mean.

07:43

Yeah. And then, yeah, and then to let there’s that, but then there’s the children. And then there’s the kids. And now, you know, when you start pushing it against, you know, five-year-old six-year-olds, grade ones, two, three, and you start to some degree, indoctrinating them in the fact that, hey, do you not feel comfortable with this? It’s okay to not feel comfortable, you can be whatever you want.

08:11

It’s almost the equivalent. It’s obviously an extreme, but it’s the equivalent of Don’t worry, everyone gets a participation trophy. Like, let’s not worry about winning or losing, because we’re all the same in every way as long as you as long as you were on the field. And you didn’t do anything, but you were there. Good job. Yeah, you don’t have to try anymore. Like I used to, like when I used to suck at sports. I used to get the six-year-olds occasional, well, you really gave it to your All right. It’s basically what you tell somebody when they suck, but they really like at least you appreciate or respect the fact that they really put in there, like, best effort, you know, into the game. And now, you don’t even have to do that. I mean, let alone scorekeeping. But I mean, now just take it, they get compliments for everything, you get praise for everything, you there, you end up and it’s interesting, right? Because you can talk about generations, and you can, you know, our parents’ generation would say, like, we’re soft, and you know, and now we, and they created our generation, let’s be honest, and we’re creating the next generation, and it’s just this perpetual kind of thing. But, you know, I used to when I, whenever I would play sports, if I, if I would suck, you know what happens? You get benched because with the end of the game, we’re trying to win. And I guess that’s, that’s the whole reason you play a sport. It’s not because oh, let’s have some fun physical activities. And, like, if we’re going to play competitively, that’s the whole purpose like otherwise then don’t even bother making it competitive. Licious. Go and run around and all that stuff. So, you know what’s ironic? It’s I mean, the people who come up with this stuff and it trickles down, right? They come from the top echelons of society, you know, could be politicians could be different influential people. And out of all the people out there, it’s these people that should know better. They know keeping score matters. Any politician only gets elected into the office because they win a race, because somebody has to vote for them. So, to count the votes, I mean, there’s no such thing as a politician who didn’t have to count votes. There’s no such thing as an influencer, that doesn’t count likes or followers, right. They’re always there’s always a measuring stick. And if we condition the next generation to not keep track of, they’re not keeping score, so to speak, then how do we expect for them to start businesses? I mean, can you start a business just for participation? No, you have to pay the bills, you know, when off, the bills come in, and people want to get their salaries, and you have to pay your infrastructure cost? You know, there’s no such thing as saying, well, you know, what, at least I showed up, who gives a shit honestly, like, are you performing or you’re not performing and you’re being judged by the numbers, you’re being judged by your score. I think, unfortunately, though, being in Canada being in some parts of the US,

11:33

We are not building entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is not an it’s not something that we’re grooming our kids to become, we’re grooming our kids to become workers and but even then, to basically work around their standards, not to try and build anything to basically create this incredible work life balance that doesn’t really isn’t sustainable with a how we live in these countries. It’s not like we’re, you know, like I said to you, I was in the middle of Uganda.

12:14

And it’s one thing if you’re in the middle of Uganda, and everybody is poor, and the standards of living area, like the same across the board, kids have to walk three kilometers to go to school and like, you’re, but they’re happy, and everybody’s like, you know, because they’re all living the same life. Now, you’re basically saying, no, no, don’t worry about it. Everybody gets participation, everybody should get equal pay, because we’re all equal. And everybody should have the same living standards. But let’s make sure that the living standards are unaffordable based on what it actually makes sense. And I don’t know if the whole system unfortunately, in this problem with politicians, like politicians aren’t politicians, entrepreneurs, politicians aren’t typically business minded people, they’ve never really, truly done much other than been in politics. And what is politics really, other than go shake a few hands, like, learn about some of the policies, figure out how you want to present yourself to the public, and say whatever the public wants to hear. I think that’s why a lot of people really like the idea of having someone like Trump around the country because he actually runs businesses, as much as people hate him as well. I mean, America is pretty divided on that. And, but at the same time, a lot of people that I talk to, and I talk mostly to entrepreneurs, I talk mostly to people who, like, have done something to some kind of risk. You know, for the most part, I don’t get any positive feedback about our prime minister.

14:03

You know, he doesn’t seem to be very popular. And at the same time, the first time I actually heard someone talk about the whole issue of not keeping score with the entitlement was back in the late 2000s. When I started studying Dan Kennedy, even back then he could already see it coming. How, you know, the whole participation thing became more important than area excelling. When I grew up in Ukraine,

14:33

The kids who got bad grades, like if you got an F on your, on your test or something, you were actually being asked to move back to the end of the classroom to the last, you know, desk in the classroom. So, you can let the kids who do pay attention sit at the front, because obviously you weren’t paying attention. Now I think that’s a bit extreme. But it shows you the philosophy of that part of the world where you were shamed for not performing? Right, it was embarrassing to go home with a diary, because we used to keep like diaries where the teacher would put in the grades, like, it was embarrassing for me to go back home, if I got a bad grade. Now, it does train a different mindset that I also think is a bit bad, where it’s like you’re being trained not to make mistakes. And so, you just end up becoming very good at memorizing stuff and following certain protocols. But you’re not really great at breaking the rules, which I think is actually very important for someone who wants to become an entrepreneur and succeed in life. But that’s something that came later. And I think, as a Ukrainian, I can tell you that another part of that system actually encourages you to break the rules all the time. It’s something that you don’t need to teach kids over there, it just somehow happens on its own. So, imagine my surprise when I came to Canada, and I mean, you’ve just not been encouraged to, to excel, you’re not being encouraged to try. And what I really, really hate is that you’re not being encouraged to suffer in any way. But how do you build a strong character? How do you build a strong personality? If you haven’t suffered? I mean, if you study any of the greats, in any field, there’s always going to be a lot of suffering involved in their path. And we’re raising these sheltered children that really don’t suffer at all. I mean, it really even comes down to a point where my daughter is like, I’m thirsty. And I’m like, well, I don’t have water right now. And we’re gonna be there in 20 minutes. So just hold it together. You know? I was like, no, I can’t, you know, I can’t, I need to drink now. I was like, are you kidding me just pull it together for 20 minutes, there’s no water in the car. Just, that’s what I mean, deal with it. And so, I have to actually say it back in the day when, you know, when we were driving somewhere, we could go for like three hours without a bathroom break, or water or whatever. And you wouldn’t hear a peep from me. Oh, you know why, though, you know what, what it is, and again.

17:12

I’m gonna bring this back, because I literally just got back from Africa and then, it comes down to us as humans, we don’t have a choice, but we’re wired to solve problems. And we’re wired to find what the problems are that we want to solve. In Africa. And Uganda, the problems are,

17:48

I need to get by, I need to make sure that we have water, I need to get to school, I need to, and so, this includes I need to walk a long distance, and I need to take care of my family and stuff like that, right?

18:04

I don’t have time to think about whether there’s male or female, or whether there’s a spectrum between men and women. These aren’t problems that I’m facing. And as you come to Canada, or the US or Europe, where all of those basic problems have been solved, right? We’ve already gotten to the stage where we’ve solved all of this. So now the question is, well, what problems can we create? Because as humans, we can’t, we’re not going to live in Utopia. We can’t, our minds don’t work that way. We need to find a problem to solve. And we’re going to create problems. So, what are the problems? Well, you know, what, I don’t feel very comfortable in the body I was born in. So that’s kind of a problem. Let’s address that. Or, you know what, I already have all the water I want. But I don’t have an instant, so I can’t watch my show right now. Like within the next millisecond. That’s my current problem, right now. 

19:07

I have to wait two minutes, or whatever it is, right? So, let’s go and solve that problem. And let me complain about it until there’s a solution. Most people will prefer to complain than actually go and solve the problem. That’s the reality of it. And that’s where entrepreneurs come in. But then if you descend, to incentivize entrepreneurs to solve these problems, then what’s the purpose? You just have a whole bunch of people complaining? And that’s ultimately the problem with Canada is you live in a liberal minded place where entrepreneurship is kind of frowned upon not So, per se but in in the incentive, at least, you know, okay, you do well, no problem, but we’re going to make sure you take that money and give it to everybody who doesn’t do well.

19:59

And then you encourage all of the aspects of everything related to, oh, you don’t feel very comfortable in this situation. So, let’s amplify that and make sure you feel comfortable. Because the world, you know, the world is a tough place. And we just need to make sure everybody’s super comfortable. I don’t know that, it, we create these situations in our world. And that’s the one that’s the biggest problem with the first world, you know, that we live in is like, we’ve solved everything. So, what’s next to solve? You know, I agree with you. So, so much, having grown up in a place where survival was an issue, where you’re actually concerned with putting food on the table, making sure you’ve got run water. I mean, we used to have electricity cut off twice a week, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, which means there was I mean, the house would be, you know, cold, there would be only cold water running in the pipes, you didn’t have any lights. So, we would have like neighbors come to our place, we would have a kerosene lamp installed on the table.

21:14

We would play bingo for like three hours until they would, you know, get the lights back on. And we would like to put it like a traditional tea kettle on the stove. And Dylan goes like, you know, it just makes it sound. So, or at times, like during the summertime, all the sudden, they would shut off the water. So, you have to walk two kilometers to a pump, stand in line, because it was for the whole neighborhood. It wasn’t just you, it was just your apartment, you know, it was like everybody had the water shut off. So, you go there, you stand in line for two hours, you finally get to the pump, you get the water, obviously, you don’t just get one bucket, you get like a couple of buckets. So now you have to carry like these 10-liter buckets, back home for two kilometers and then get it up to like the fifth floor as well. So, a lot of this stuff was real and the problems you were solving were survival problems, safety problems, things like that. Over here, you’re absolutely right. There’s no such thing. There’s so much convenience. There’s so much the basics were taken care of. But there’s also so much convenience that people take it for granted. And you’re right now the problem is you know what I’m ordering UberEATS. And I have to wait 45 minutes, and I really don’t feel like it. So, I’ll get priority delivery. And then the other recently, I’ve noticed there’s another feature where you can, you know, you can basically order from a restaurant of some kind, like we get sushi from this really cool sushi place. And then actually right next to that place, there’s bubble tea place as well. So, you can combine it. So now Uber is encouraging you, hey, also get something from these other places within like, a one-mile radius or something. And you know what it’s creating? It’s funny, it’s, have it?

23:08

Have you ever seen the movie ” Idiocracy? Yeah. First of all, before I say that, going back to your situation, you know, the situation where you had to get buckets of water.

23:20

At the time, I guarantee you the last thing you were thinking about is I better make sure my straws paper because otherwise the environment and you know, it’s like these aren’t where I’m thinking right? Like you’re I drink from the same cup my entire childhood. Exactly, exactly. I mean, its straws, when one-mile I saw a straw for the first time. I don’t really know, even when it was so exciting. Yeah, I mean, you could bend it and stuff who makes this little tick, tick, tick, tick, tick sound, you know, it was so exciting. Now you can’t you can’t get my kids excited about things anymore. They take it for granted. Yeah. And it’s, it’s so true. But that’s where we’re headed, we’re headed to a world where, you know, you have Apple coming out with that Apple vision or whatever they call it.

24:12

And that’s going to, you know, Apple, when Apple plays in the space, it’s going to make an impact. And that’s, you know, we’ve had, you know, VR and all that stuff.

24:25

But now because apples come into this space, it kind of creates that validation for a lot of the non-techie, non-nerd type of people. And you’re gonna see a lot of consumers, you know, they obviously call it Vision Pro, because it’s going to be the more expensive version. Eventually they’re going to have their vision SAE or whatever it is, that’s going to be the more affordable version for the masses. And now you’re going to basically say, okay, I’m not going to get up. I’m not going to do anything. I’m going to work from home. 

25:00

I put on my headset, I’m going to get my UberEATS delivery, I’m going to basically not exercise. And really, the next thing is like, there’s a comedy special on Netflix from a, from his name I think, is Ronnie, Ronnie Chang or something. And he jokes about like, he’s just like, I don’t even want to order UberEATS I want you to come over and put it in my mouth. I want you to take the food and put it in my mouth. So, I don’t have to get up. I don’t have to get a spork. I don’t have to sit. Just put it right in my mouth. And that’s, that’s basically where we’re headed is like, yep, goggles, just sit back work from home, not move off on my couch.

25:51

Not worry about what’s happening in the outside world. Send me my food, put it right at the door. Actually, you know what, come inside and put it on my plate for me. And yeah, it’s So, not dude, there’s, there’s like a really old Soviet cartoon about a kid who was one of the lazy kids again, at the time when this was frowned upon to be lazy. Now, it’s almost celebrated. Like, if you’re lazy, that means you figured out a way not to do grunt work. And therefore, you’re smart. You know, like the whole Bill Gates quotes, like, I tried to hire a lazy person to do the job because they find the most efficient way to do it or something. So back, I remember this cartoon. So, there’s this kid, right? And he’s really lazy. He doesn’t want to do his homework. He doesn’t want to help out his parents. He doesn’t want to do whatever the chores are. And then he finds his box. And out of this box, come to guys, big guys. And they’re identical. They’re identical twins. And they’re basically there to do everything for him.

26:57

So, he’s like, okay, do my homework, they do the homework, okay, do my laundry, they do his laundry, do my whatever. He’s very excited. And he’s like, Alright, I’m ready to ready to eat. So, make me this. And then they make him like really tasty. You know, whatever, whatever the food was, and they eat it. He’s like, hey, what are you doing? It’s like, we’re doing everything for you. And they eat the food, they enjoy their leisure time, right? So, he can get anything. And the premise of the cartoon is you put in the work, it means you’re like, earning your right to enjoy the good stuff, including the basics, such as food, right, and rest. Yeah. And so, the message was really clear, you don’t work, you don’t need to tasty stuff, you don’t get to enjoy life really well. And that message is so indoctrinated into, you know, Eastern European society, where it come from, but it seems like the message in the western society is a little bit off, where it’s like, do everything. For me, we’ve got all this technology, right to do everything for us. I know the cars are self-driving, the laundry machine is self-washing the UberEATS is it’s self-serving the food to us and everything. But then we don’t seem to be appreciating it because we get to enjoy all the benefits. So, we do not have to work and do all of the benefits. And we just cultivate a toxic mindset. That’s just gonna like, I mean, the Western society is already on the decline. Everyone can see. Right? Yep, you know, you know what the issue is, too is that because everything is so convenient.

28:40

And because you know, you have aI coming and you have ChatGPT and all the self-driving cars and eventually with if Elon makes it happen with neural link and you know, chips in your brain breakthroughs and stuff like that, and, and all the medicine and all of the all the kind of biotech advancements so that you can live longer as well and be healthier for longer. The problem is, with the kind of standards of living in order to afford and get all of this, not only, you know, imagine really the age of retirement is no longer going to be 65 it’s actually going to end up being for most people 85 It’s already that I mean most authority for sure, and because the standards of living keep self-driving going up and up and up and up.

29:42

But the self-driving main, the main problem that we face is that we’re bored right? Like what? Yeah, let’s pull up our phones and let’s scroll through Instagram and through YouTube and let’s self-driving watch Netflix and like I

30:00

What am I supposed to do? I am I can’t, I’m not gonna drive like first of all, I used to actually stick shift or I used to love stick shift. But I still love it. It does. I mean it can have its downsides because we had this really be down day you Nubira which is based on Chevy Cruze but like an older version, yeah, and between the second and the third year, there was the I mean, it was broken or something because I had to use my other arm to actually push it through to the third year. There was one time when I was coming back from the airport. And I got stuck in a traffic jam for like an hour. So, it’s like you go a little bit. Yeah. Dude, I was so my arm hurts so bad that but so, the point was that, like, you had to drive, you had to pay attention, right? And then Okay, now it’s automatic. Okay, so I As long as I can press on a pedal, I can press on the brake, and I can turn the wheel. I’m good. Now. Like,

30:57

I drive a Tesla. And any chance I get I don’t have full autopilot. Because I think it’s ridiculous. And I actually enjoy driving. But truthfully, anytime I get I put it on I like the regular autopilot and just let it drive on the highway. Like I turn on autopilot and let it drive. And it’s easy to get sucked into that, isn’t it? It’s very easy, because it’s like, well, it’s literally just driving me right. And it gets to the point. That’s just a very small example. But okay, fast forward five years. And now full autopilot is pretty standard in most cars.

31:40

And even more so in 10 years. And now okay, nobody needs to drive fine. Okay, great. Our kids don’t have to learn how to drive. They’ll solve a bunch of problems. Traffic will no longer be a thing. And you know, there’s going to be a lot of benefits to it. But guess what I’m going to do while I’m driving, scroll, do something because I’m going to be bored, right? I can’t, I don’t need to focus. I don’t need to pay attention. Because I’m Carter, I mean, social media and Netflix, all these companies, they will win. I mean, you’ll probably be driving an Apple Car wearing Apple vision for exactly right doing your work and presentations and zoom calls like this while your steering wheel is going on its own. And it’s so counterintuitive to remember that movie I used to watch when I was growing up in Ukraine, we were really influenced by guys like Schwarzenegger in the John Claude van Damme. And, you know, a lot of these actions, you know, Chuck Norris and stuff. And so there was this movie about a time cop. Yeah, I remember. Remember that. So, in that movie, he was actually using a self-driving car. He, I think in the first couple of minutes of the movie, jumps into the car. He’s like, home, and the car is like, Yeah, okay, cool. And it just drives Yep. And so, watching that, we were like, oh my god, this is so cool. So amazing. But what really happens is, you know, these Google self-driving cars that go around or some other type of cars, there was this thing where it ran over a person. Even though inside the car, you self-driving have a designated person who’s supposed to sit there and prevent this kind of stuff. Why did that happen? Because the person sitting inside the car did what?

33:27

They just scroll through there. So, I mean, we were capable now, by the way of just sitting there. No, we can’t, right. That’s why a lot of people turn into meditation, things like that, because we’re incapable of just being idle, and letting just hear, you know, be the president thing. We don’t want to spend time with each other. People would rather text than to actually speak. And it’s so funny.

33:57

It’s so funny, like, when we were in Uganda, it was a group of 12 of us, like I didn’t know any of them, like other than the person I went with. And we met all of them. But then as we traveled around the country, no one wanted Obviously, no one was on like data, because we didn’t want to pay massive roaming bills. And Wi Fi was only extremely spotty, first and foremost. And it was only at the lodges that we were staying in. But it wasn’t even in the rooms. It was only in the lobby restaurant area. And it was always terrible. Like it was really slow. But what was interesting was we were forced to spend time with strangers and talk and because we couldn’t go on our phones, there was nothing to do on our phones because we didn’t have the internet.

34:51

So, we’d spend all this time with these strangers. We get to know them and we speak to them. And then the minute we would get to a lobby every one of them at all 12 of us would have Wi -Fi. Does it work? Does it work? Yeah. Okay, so then we would sit at the table on while we’re having dinner, all of us would just be on our phones, like, and I would look up and I would observe, and I’d be like, it’s crazy, like 20 minutes ago, we didn’t have a choice but to talk to each other. And now the minute we have the choice, it’s like, let’s dive into this virtual world, even though we’re all sitting here together, like we could keep talking and having conversations.

35:34

But, it’s just the world that we’re the world that we’re in. No, and you’re right. And, you know, we do a lot of joint ventures. And part of doing joint ventures is I am always looking for ways to get people out of their day to day to try and have a conversation with them. And so, it can be very difficult, especially for guys like us, I mean, you’re a founder. And I can only imagine your phone exploding all day long, you’ve got slack, overwhelming the crap out of you and all the other messaging platforms. So, you’re probably limiting the number of incoming messages by having gatekeepers and stuff like that. So, when it comes to actually connecting with other people with whom I can GV, you know, one of the best ways to do it is some sort of physical environment. Like I just came back from Vancouver mastermind where I get to hang out with quite a few people from our industry that you probably heard of.

36:24

And what’s really interesting is that it was a six-day long mastermind with the first day just being, you know, having dinners. The second day, we had something like a team building thing happening. We did a trampoline dodgeball and an escape room, which I enjoyed both, by the way, very, very much. And then four days following, we were in a house together, all of us, and we pretty much spent the entire day and then dinner together. And there were very few people actually, who were constantly spending time on their phones, like what I noticed is, you know, everyone made a conscious effort to just be present in the room, talk to each other, and connect with as many people as they could. And it was a very fulfilling experience. For me personally, like anytime I go anywhere now, I try not to even enable Wi Fi. Because I know the moment I do, and my phone starts exploding with notifications, just like anyone’s phone, you’re just gonna get sucked into it. Because these things are by the way, they are built to suck your attention. And one thing that I like to do is I like to set my phone like when I really need to not look at it, I tried to set it to grayscale. So, I heard this talk by somebody from Google, that if you take your phone and you turn on grayscale and accessibility options, what will happen is your phone goes black and white. And because it’s not so visually appealing to the eye, you naturally don’t want to keep staring at it. So, the moment you do that, your screen time goes down 30% absent any other changes, your screen time just goes down. Yeah. 

38:12

So, I tried to turn off the internet and the level that you like, the level of connection you can achieve if everyone around you just convinced a certain period of time to not be on their phone is tremendous. Like you get to know people from a different perspective. All of a sudden, they don’t appear as standoffish as they usually would. Some people have got a resting bitchface all of a sudden and start smiling. So, you don’t really think they’re assholes. You know, they open up from a different direction. You know, I was just hanging out with this guy. I’ve known him for some time now. And we always like to have good chats. But we now spend so much time together that he ended up admitting that he was at one point, you know, almost went to prison because he had offenses like the police. And like all of a sudden, I’m discovering a whole other side to his story that never came up. And that doesn’t happen if you’re having surface level chat conversations. Yeah, the sudden, interesting thing that I find is that entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs are usually the ones who a embrace this technology the most but also push this technology aside the most as well because they’re sudden, conscious enough that they understand the repercussions and they basically, I don’t know it’s interesting I whenever I would surround myself with entrepreneurs, what you just said is, is always the case like you end up you realize that most of them don’t go on their phones because they want to network and spend time with this other and connect at a deeper level. Maybe because they’re on their phones and in that world all the time. But then on the Flipside you hang out with people who aren’t entrepreneurs. And it’s almost as though they are.

40:09

They are sucked into it. And it’s part of it. So, you don’t see them turning it off as much, you don’t see them consciously thinking about the fact that this is happening. This may be just a generalized generalization, and it may not be factually correct, but it certainly feels that at least the people I hang out with, they really try to make a conscious effort to not dive in. Like more and more I’m finding entrepreneurs are disconnecting from social media, like, I don’t even have Instagram, I don’t, I don’t have Facebook, I don’t use Facebook, I have a Facebook account, but I don’t ever use it. I’ve unfollowed literally every single one of my contacts on Facebook so that when I log into Facebook, I’ve got nothing to look at. Hence, I don’t ever log into Facebook, I deleted my Instagram account.

41:00

The only thing I dive into once in a while for entertainment purposes is Twitter. Because and like right now my Twitter feed is all about what we spoke about at the very beginning, just like gender, social politics. I like to follow both left and right, because I’m curious to understand both points of view. But more and more, I’m finding that I do use LinkedIn once in a while and I post on LinkedIn. So that’s So, true. But I’m finding more and more that entrepreneurs are disconnecting themselves from these things that ultimately, we’ve built. Like that’s, that’s the funny thing is like entrepreneurs built it. And most entrepreneurs who built it are like, yeah, you probably shouldn’t use it. Like it’s, yeah. And you can tell by, you know, there’s like in Silicon Valley, they have most people, like most founders hire nannies, right? Yeah. And they have a clause like a standard clause in those in the agreements that make them sign that if they lead their kids spend more than an hour a day, in front of a screen or social media, whatever, you know, they get fired on the spot. Yeah. So, the people who created technology actually, are the biggest advocates of limiting access to that technology. And that tells you a lot about the technology. Right? Exactly, exactly. And there’s also another perspective that a friend of mine introduced me to a couple of months ago. So, he’s a very smart guy, older guys. Well, he’s close to being I think he’s like in his late 50s Right now, but he looks very young and very advanced in many ways, that travels a lot. And he shared that. Today. As of today, Any person, any average person has an equivalent of what used to be 18 people, 18 servants working for you. So, we transitioned from a time when we needed like, 18 people do our bidding, you know, be it take out our, you know, feces into the yard, cooking our food, and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, messengers who would like take the letter and take it to somebody in town and come back. So, we now have an equivalent of 18 such servants working for us via email, Uber Eats or whatnot. With that in mind, however, now that the average person has access to all this technology and all these resources, it seems like the rich people are the ones who have the freedom to have the ability to just be quiet to have the ability to not be bothered 24/7 Whether phones who have the ability to disconnect, from social to disconnect from their immediate surroundings to not be preoccupied with emails, 24/7 Now basically, the it’s the rich people who can actually sit down in a chair and think, or not think, yeah, right. And it seems like in the future, the way I see it, the rich will be paying extra to not be bothered to not be hammered with ads to not be surrounded by So, this noise in social media, the news, you know, communication of any kind. Basically, there’ll be pain to be in solitude. I don’t know if I don’t know if it’s rich people, or if it’s, I don’t know if it has anything to do with money. I think it has to do with purely the satisfaction of life. I think at the end of the day.

44:48

All of this stuff is distractions, and it distracts from your reality. And I think most people don’t actually like their reality, they don’t like their job. They don’t like what they spend their time on. Many of them don’t like their kids or their Theo’s or their spouse. And they don’t like where they live. They don’t, they don’t like their situation and but I think you also have to mention that they also don’t like who they are, they don’t exactly 100. They’re kind of sort of, they realize they’re stuck with the life that they have, you know, exactly. And what this does is it basically allows you to be distracted, it allows you to basically say, Okay, well, if I don’t have to face the reality, by jumping into Netflix, jumping into YouTube, scrolling through Instagram, looking at other people, and, and basically continuously being entertained, which is why I think, you know, the prominence of reality TV in general has skyrocketed, and the Kardashians and all that stuff is because people look at other people’s lives, and basically say they need them to see that those other people’s lives, even though they’re richer and more successful, they’re very dysfunctional. I think that the big thing is that they need to see other people fail miserably in their lives even more than we do precisely. And I think that is so . I think it’s not so much because there’s a lot of rich people who are also miserable, they made money, but they’re still miserable. And I think the main difference is, the people who can shut off and the people who can turn it off are the ones who are genuinely in a good mental space with what they who they are, what they’ve accomplished, what there it’s where they stand in the world. I think, you know, my dad used to tell me, you tell me something that has always, always stuck with me. And I always think about it whenever I feel stressed.

46:58

But stress is a very simple formula that most people don’t realize. Stress is purely the difference between reality and your expectation. And the further apart these two things are, the more tension there is, and the more stress there is. So, if your reality is, I am living in this shoebox, and I’m working a $40,000 a year job. And my expectation is, I want to be a millionaire. And I really want to be living in a mansion, and I want to have a family. But I’m single, because you have this reality, but you have this mental expectation. It causes tension in your brain and stress.

47:56

It was funny the way he kind of explained it to me was you he I was talking to him when I first was like growing funnel addicts. And I asked, I was like, Man, I’m stressed. He’s like, why are you stressed? I was like, because we’re burning money. And we’re burning money with analytics, like, we’re not profitable. And he’s like, can stop you be profitable? I’d be like, yeah, I could be, I’d have to cut this, this and this, and we’d have to not focus on can growth and, and spending money on can these marketing tactics and all that stuff. And he’s like, so why are you stressed? I was like, well, because if I keep going, I’m gonna run out of money he’s like, but you’re making the conscious choice to set an expectation that if you spend this money, it will potentially get you to profitability. But the reality is, you’re can burn capital, and you’re in this situation. So, you’ve got two options, you can either be okay with the decision that you’re here. And that potentially what you do will get you to here, or you’re going to just lower your reality and bring it back. And then you won’t be stressed if that’s what is actually stressing you out the fact that you’re printing money. And as he kind of explained that, and he mentioned that I was like, Yeah, I mean, you’re right, like I So, literally have put this on myself by basically saying, let’s go and invest all this money into these things that may or may not work out. But then I’ve turned it around in my head and said, actually, this is stressing me out now because like I may hit this wall. So, I’ve got two options. I can either cut back on all this stuff and get back to the comfort of I’m no longer burning money, we’re profitable, etc. And we’re not going to focus on growth. Or I can realize that there is a difference between my expectation and my reality. And I can embrace that and keep striving towards that and if it doesn’t work out, I think change. And ever since then, I’ve always looked at stress and this mental game in that way. So, you know, anytime I look at a situation, I’m like I’m feeling this crunch or this stress, I asked myself like, well, why is that is where where’s my expectation of that thing? And where’s the reality of that thing? And where’s that gap? And can I either bring down the expectation back to my reality? Or are the decisions that I’m making and the actions I’m taking, going to move me towards that expectation?

50:45

And if I feel confident with that, those decisions and that that action, all of a sudden, the stress goes away? Because I’m like, okay, actually, I’m working towards closing that gap. So, I think most people, again, they’re unhappy with their life because of that gap and their expectation of life versus the reality. It’s just so far apart. Yeah, you’re right. I remember reading this book many years ago, by a Russian author. It was a bit of a new agey author, and I think it was a bit ahead of its time. But when he spoke about it, he tried to explain it in a similar way. And the way he positioned it was the frame was, you’re basically idealizing what should be, rather than looking at what is, and so when, when you idealize, like, for example, let’s take marriage, like when you idealize what the marriage should be, and then you compare it to what is, this is where a lot of distress will come from, you know, rather than kind of addressing, okay, this is what the marriage is, and, you know, if I want it to be something else, what are some of the practical steps? Should I take it? Is it being it an honest conversation with my spouse about what I want is it you know, whatever, but most people just spend time, you know, idealizing, and really stressing out about what it’s what it’s not, but they don’t really, they don’t really do much to fix it. And what I noticed is the moment you arrive at the point where you say, okay, it’s not what I wanted. So here are the steps I’m going to take to actually make it what I want, and you get into the action mode, you start taking steps, you immediately feel better, like you’re no longer busy stressing out or trying to distract yourself or procrastinate, you’re actually feeling they’re super present and focused. And that goal will drive you, you know, just keep you so engaged, that you will not need any distractions, like anytime I find myself sinking into video games or something.

52:47

It always means that I’m either not setting a big enough goal, or that I’m idealizing some part of my life, and I’m trying to escape, because I don’t want to think about it. Exactly. And, and the okay difference between you and 99% of the population is that once you’ve looked at a that as a challenge, and you see it as okay, if I take action, I can solve it, you go and take action 99% of the population will not they don’t want to take action, it’s actually almost more intimidating to take action than to just drown the noise and basically get out of it. So, people will complain about their financial situation, people will complain about the fact that they have to work till 65, people will complain about the fact that they’re not living where they want to live or with the person they want to be with.

53:48

And instead of then, taking any sort of action, because they’re scared or whatever they’re afraid of the failure or whatever it may be.

53:58

They’ll just drown it, and they’ll drown it in video games, they’ll drown it in Netflix and YouTube and Instagram and whatever can distract them from the reality of taking that action because taking action is uncomfortable. If people like to be in their comfort zone, and especially in this first world, we already you know come full circle of this, like it’s, it’s too comfortable, right? So, if I feel you make me uncomfortable, I get anxious and I need stress leave and I need all sorts of things. So, it’s just the reality. Yes, it is a sad reality. And look, we’re out of time. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss these things with me.

54:41

If anyone’s listening and they like the way you think, where can they go to find out more about you? Yeah, I mean, normally I don’t talk too much about the like, it’s always more business and marketing and all that stuff. You can check me out on LinkedIn. Just look for McHale, dia I post a lot of videos and stuff. font there. That’s basically the only place I’m active. Otherwise, you can sign up to our free mapping tool for analytics. 

55:10

And yeah, I send some emails and I’ve got a lot of content and stuff like that mostly centered around business, marketing and growth. So yeah, those are the options. Yeah. And just you know, as a shameless plug, can you give us the elevator pitch for funnel addicts? Like, what does it do? And who is it perfect for? Yeah, so for analytics is a tool that we built to help marketers map out their customer journeys, their funnels, and then overlay all of the data right there on a visual canvas. It is a perfect tool for any sort of performance marketer or service provider agency, who wants to visually align their team, align their clients present to their clients, and really dive into what is working versus what’s not inside of their marketing funnels and where those bottlenecks are. That is what phonics is all about. All right, well, again, thank you so much for spending this hour with me. And don’t mix them with chat.

56:09

Thank you for listening to the list building lifestyle, get access to the previous episode’s transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also, remember to clean your free copy of my bestselling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how I made millions with list building starting from scratch. Plus, I’ll give you $3,000 worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email, swipe files and traffic. Go to www.igorsbook.com now to claim your free package