The Copywriter Behind Some of the World’s Most Recognizable Brands With Colin Chung

I’m Igor Kheifets and this is the list building lifestyle. The podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my bestselling book, the list building lifestyle Confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus $3,000 Bonus packages includes my best capture page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now it’s time to claim your list building lifestyle.

00:53

Welcome back to the list building lifestyle. I’m your host Igor Kheifets and today I’m hosting my good friend, Colin Chung. Now Colin is a highly experienced copywriter and he’s now copy chief for quite a few big businesses. In fact, his credentials are just outrageous. If I’m honest with you, some of his clients include a gore-finaler, true Genex pineapple with marketing, Eva Jane kitchens Brian Tracy, and Jim quick. He also spent about six years being the primary coach for John Carlton simple writing system, a cohort based copywriting course. And he trained hundreds of business owner’s entrepreneurs and freelancers on how to write copy under that umbrella. He is currently the director of copy a supplement company and a copy chief of multiple projects at his own agency plural Inc. He writes sales letters he produces via sales, secrets, webinars, and all the things that he worked on so far, roughly generating about $250 million in direct sales. As a copy consultant, he helps people with their funnels. He does copy critiques. He helps optimize marketing operations, recruit copywriters, train them, has his own little stable of copywriters, and he’s basically everywhere. And recently, he decided to start his own newsletter where he’s providing short snippets on long form information and books and study material to help you gain knowledge without having to invest a ridiculous amount of time in reading a 500 page book on psychology and things like that. He’s, you know, people who we all know admire and respect like Jim Quick, John Carlton Brian Kurtz, Gary golf, Goldstein, Christine Closer, and a bunch of other people are raving about working with Colin, so I’m really excited to welcome him to the show. Colin, welcome to the Lisbon lifestyle, tremendously grateful to be here. And that’s a really generous introduction. Thank you.

03:12

Oh, come on. You’re almost all of it anyway. So no, seriously, I think I think it’s a skill to be able to write good copy about yourself, you know, as an affiliate marketer, and, you know, you wrote, copy and write copy for all kinds of different clients. I’m sure you’ve noticed this, too. It’s so hard sometimes to squeeze good stuff about yourself. But when you’re writing about other people or other people’s products, it almost comes out naturally. I don’t even need to, you know, feel like I’m working or trying too hard. It just flows. But for me, man, I was just before this. Before we started, I was working on a new headline for my affiliate marketing program called the three one key challenge. And you know, I decided to use ChatGPT so I don’t have to start from scratch, you know? And that was it. Sometimes it’s just so difficult. I don’t know, what’s your take on this? What’s yours? Is it easier for you to write a copy about other people or yourself as equally difficult?

04:15

Oh, absolutely. It’s easier to write for others. You’re not me at the end of the day, you’re not responsible. That’s really what it is. Because when you write for a client or guru or whatever, you can say whatever you want, and you can push the limit. And its Declassee job to pan that copy over to the lawyer and the lawyer will tell you no, you can’t do this. Don’t can’t do that. And it’s kind of like you only have one job. But then, you know, I recently wrote a sales letter for my own thing, my very first digital product. It’s a freelancing course and I find myself hedging a lot. Because there’s that realization of one, it’s my face there. So now my reputation is on the line. And then two. Do I have to deliver this? So like, if I’m saying making these big promises, I better deliver. Whereas when you’re making promises for somebody else, it’s like, yeah, you can promise the Boo. And it’s just to let them figure it out.

05:13

No, you’re absolutely right. And one of one of my favorite authors, I think his name is, if I pronounced rightness seemed to live, the guy who wrote a Fooled By Randomness and a bunch of other books, he talks a lot about this, he talks about how, as a society, we will benefit if we hold people accountable for the advice they give, like, you know, we got all these accountants, financial planners, we got people in Congress, we got, you know, people who will lobby different laws and different regulations for the Big Pharma. I mean, if something goes wrong, and people get hurt, and in many cases, you know, when we talk, you know, on a geopolitical scale, like with COVID, vaccines and things like that, you know, people get hurt big time. And those people who push the wrong agenda, they don’t get slapped on the wrist, they don’t get fired, they don’t get put in jail, they actually just go quiet for like six full months, and then they get rehired into a different firm, that’s trying to do the same with probably a bigger paycheck and a bigger bonus promise. And I think our industry in I want to see our industry, I mean, the industry of, you know, making money online, or making money with information or affiliate marketing and any aspect of it, including, by the way, people who sell physical stuff, you know, like Amazon, so as drop shippers, I think there’s not enough accountability there. Yeah, there’s the FTC regulating things and just throwing people in jail or ruining their life entirely, which I think is a bit of an extreme. We need something in the middle, where the market or the people or something, we’ll hold people accountable, we’ll hold these fake gurus accountable, because there’s some people out there that are running around with no conscience. And they make all kinds of claims just the other day, just the other day, I swear, a YouTube ad came up for me and this guy, average looking guy, he’s like, I promise, we either get you to 10k per month with affiliate marketing or, or something is basically guaranteeing you income. Now, I’ve been in the game long enough to know you can’t, you can’t guarantee that unless you’re running a Ponzi scheme, and the next guy joining will have to sell the same exact promise. And I don’t think that’s legal.

07:29

No Ponzi schemes are definitely not legal. But it is a weird gray line that we tread on every day of our lives as marketers and copywriters. It’s like, on one hand, it’s freedom of speech for us to say things, right. And I will defend that to you know, the benefit of democracy is that it is very chaotic. But we have more freedom of speech, we let people do things and they get to make a choice. And then, I mean, yes, accountability is important. But it’s kind of like one of those things where, technically there are regulations, it’s just that they’re not enforced as well as they could be. Right? So it’s like, this great scene from Fight Club, where it’s reviewed that Norton’s character is an insurance adjuster. And it’s kind of just like, it’s calculated in, like, out of 10,000 cars one’s bound to fail, and we already have the money in a bank account for the insurance. And it’s kind of like, that’s just kind of how the world works.

08:44

Yeah, it’s a bit of a statistic, isn’t it? When these big companies meet them, they sort of expect for this to happen so they get ready. And the whole issue of accountability, I think it’s a big issue not just in the world of marketing, where you and I hang out a lot but definitely in the broader spectrum as well. And I think more and more about this stuff because I have two kids and it’s really hard for me to ignore, but enough about conspiracy theories. Let’s talk about you. Let’s talk about your work. So you wrote a boatload of copying your work with some of the biggest names and you still consult some of the bigger names and marketing. But recently and again, this is how I came across your work not knowing that we have so many mutual friends in the industry. You started a samosas so a small sis at? It’s located at osmosis.dev. And this is a newsletter, where you send out a weekly email every Tuesday at 9:30am. Pacific Time and you deliver this this summary but not really I wouldn’t call it a summary but you deliver basically a very concise version of a resource you recently went through, helping us get the nuggets from it without us having to go and actually, you know, read the whole thing or watch the whole thing. So what’s provoked you to say, you know what writing copy is great incomes, great, I do what I love. And then you’re like, now I’m gonna do this other thing, which is just me. And it’s actually not writing to make a sale, it’s writing content. And this is just me on my own. No clients, no products. So what happened there?

10:39

So the newsletter is really about building a list of what you teach, so that I can share content with a list and get a good open rate. And every week, and just giving the value. And the reason why I did that was, you know, two years ago, I turned 40. And I woke up and I was like, I don’t want to be a freelancer anymore. And I want to start building my own audience. But I was very wary about just doing a typical Hey, here, here’s how to write copy, or here’s how to freelance, I want to write a newsletter that would be more generalized so that the mass market, there’s more people could be interested in it, I don’t want to just because I can’t. The thing is, I don’t think I can write a weekly newsletter, if it was just here’s how to do X. And here’s how to do it. And I did that every single week, I’ll be bored within six months. But with osmosis, there’s a personal gratification, a personal selfish reason for doing it. I’m reading books that I’ve been putting off reading, and then I get to summarize them. So it’s locked into my mind. And as a result of that, and people reading it, they get to Sharon, they get to get, you know, ideas that they wouldn’t get otherwise. Because these are some of the books I’ve covered are 500 to 700 pages long. And it’s like they’re scary, difficult books, but like, the knowledge about human behavior inside is just interesting to me. And to me, as you know, as a parent now, like there is no manual for life. But if you learn about human behavior, psychology that does give you a bit of a rulebook and you realize, oh, we’re built this way. This is how we operate now we can manipulate it hopefully,

12:28

Ya know, first I’m really grateful you started us most is because I subscribe to a ton of newsletters and sub stacks. And, you know, it’s exciting to get into them. It’s exciting to subscribe, but then I just kind of stopped reading them. But this was just a little bit different because it is extremely insightful. You know, I’m not, you know, very much involved in politics. But you had two issues recently on a political book you wrote, you kind of took it in two parts. That was really fascinating, because I know I wouldn’t read a book like that. I probably wouldn’t pick it up. You know what I mean? Like, I’ll pick up a copywriting book, I’ll pick up psychology but I won’t pick up a political book. The only political book I read was, when Bigley by I think his guys named Scott Adams, the guy who wrote who created the Dilbert comic. So he wrote about the Trump versus Hillary election. That’s actually quite fascinating because he broke it down from a copywriters perspective and tried to reverse engineer what caused Trump to win. No, of course, the margin on that was slim. And it was probably as slim as Trump versus Biden, but when Trump in Trump’s favor, but it was still a fascinating read, I remember and he writes, well, too, that’s not a thing that I have to compliment you on definitely is you’re right, so well, that I actually sit down and I enjoy the read. And it’s I can’t say that about most people, you know, you can, you can have a great idea, but be a bad writer, and completely put people off. You can also be a great writer and write about something that’s not really interesting, but I think you’re hitting most of the time. Just like all of us, you do make mistakes, I make mistakes, every mixing, but most of the time you’re hitting so well. And I can just I’m just in awe of how well you write and really, really been enjoying a small system. I advise anyone listening, you know, to subscribe. So, yeah, and as far as a manual for life, it’s, you know, I want to remember listening to a talk, it was either Brian Tracy or Zig Ziggler or Jim Rohn. I used to listen a lot to these guys. And they said something about, I think it was Ziggler because of his name. So he said something like when everybody’s eggs, you need to zag. So in a way, right in a way you look at what most people do, and kind of do the opposite. You know what I mean? Most of the time that works as good life advice.

14:54

Yeah, yeah. I can agree with that. And some people are just for the bill for that, you know, for me, I grew up an introvert, I was bullied. And I know I have above average intelligence. And that kind of puts you on the spot, especially in the 80s and 90s, when being a nerd actually meant something, whereas these days, you know, being a nerd, like everybody’s into the MCU, every buddy plays d&d. So you’re not basically everybody’s a nerd now, but like, I grew up in a time when being a nerd meant you got beaten up. Right, right. Right. So it does force you to have a different perspective on the world. And I think that gives you it forces you to say sanguine when everybody’s singing you say?

15:41

Yeah, almost like you, you rebel against the norm. In a way. Yeah.

15:46

Yeah. Well, I mean, I also oversell and am also very anti-authoritarian. So I could not deal with incompetent teachers and that carried over to bosses. Like if you were incompetent, I would just passive aggressively.

16:03

Just cause you to fire me.

16:06

I want to call them to fire me by like, Okay, I kind of mean to be condescending and May cause trouble for them until I get transferred to a different department.

16:16

No, but I get what you’re saying. I think that’s a very common quality for anyone who wants to become an entrepreneur definitely a common quality for copywriters. For me, growing up it was a bit different. I’ve always been okay with having authority over me. Until a certain point I read Rich Dad Poor Dad until I kind of started gagging when everybody was digging, you know, everybody wanted a job all the sudden they didn’t want a job, and things like that. So yeah, I think it’s an important quality. I think that’s an advantage. And for introverts, I think the internet really changed the game, right? Because now, you know, you can you can flourish you can, you know, you don’t, you don’t have to enjoy the spotlight, but you can create this, this internet spotlight where you don’t have to expose yourself too much.

17:11

Yep. Yeah. Cuz I mean, like, you know, 40 years ago, if I was like that, I would have to go join a corporation. And I would have to, like, figure out the whole game there and become more extroverted in order to climb the ladder. But like, yeah, the internet changed everything. I mean, a lot of my early career was being on the phone. And I could be like, there’s a separation. Like, when I’m talking to clients, and on selling myself, it was easier without being face to face. Because I mean, another thing that really worked against me my entire life is I still look like I’m 20, something like I still get an ID. And like, it was harder to sell, like, it’s easier to solve the cashier face. Like when you say, Oh, I charge 15k for sales later, it’s like, yeah, who are you?

18:01

I think that’s a good point. I remember going to one of the first few seminars that I went to, and I already had a coaching program. And at that seminar, I asked many of my coaching students to come in. And these were the people who at one point had to get on the phone with me, and I had to tell them, hey, I’m charging, you know, 5k or 8k prefer to coach. And so there’s this, there’s one guy who eventually became a very big success story for me, and eventually also started his own information marketing business, out of Panama, you know, he admitted later on, he was like, Dude, I remember, you know, meeting in person, it’s such a different experience. You know, I remember talking to you on the phone. And, you know, I thought I was talking to this, you know, to this huge authority, and, you know, I couldn’t see your face and you’re like, Yeah, I charge this much for coaching. You know, and this was me just in a coffee shop, with my baby face of the time, you know, I barely had any facial hair, and, you know, pretending to be a big shot. It’s, I think the phone does help with that as well as authoritative writing tone, like, email or your content, you know, that really builds you up. The other day, I was listening to a Joe Rogan episode with a guy named Michael Helgenberger. He’s like an authority on climate change. And he’s an investigative journalist. And, you know, reading his pieces and listening to him talk about his pieces is a very different experience.

19:30

Oh, yeah. Well, where did you pick up from that? Well, basically,

19:33

They spoke about the Twitter files and how the whole social media during COVID how social media suppressed a lot of posts and information about anti vaccine studies and then people posting about how they didn’t use the vaccine, but use some other medication to get better, and things like that. They spoke about Hunter Biden’s laptop and how that laptop was available. Oval was suppressed from media investigations until Biden won the election, all kinds of stuff like that, you know, the power of the government? Well doing what the government does, yes. I know the difference

20:12

Between his writing and his voice, what would you find? Yeah, so

20:16

His voice in the way he delivers his ideas and the way he talks about things, he stutters along the way, and he’s trying to really be vanilla when he expresses an opinion, you know, using your voice media like Bryce, right video. While in his writing, it’s a little bit different, it flows differently. He can plan out his god flow, you know what I mean? Like, so it’s something he was not

20:41

A good speaker, if what you’re saying it was harder for

20:45

Him. Yeah, I want to say that, again, that without trying to offend the guy, he’s still brilliant. But you know, as a speaker, he wasn’t great, in contrast to someone like Joe Rogan, who can just flow

20:55

Because well, yeah, I mean, the guy does stand up. And he’s been a host. He’s been on TV. Yeah, that is. I mean, if you want to talk about what’s affecting communication in the modern world, that is such a huge thing that you’re, I feel like almost everyone on the planet, at this point, needs media training, because we’re also public, on Instagram, Facebook, whatever Twitter. And most of us are not prepared for that. Whereas like celebrities, and actors like Joe Rogan, they’ve been in front of the TV, they’re there, they have a predilection to being in front of the TV camera. And on top of that, they’ve gotten the studio’s pay for their media training. And most of us don’t, most of us don’t. And well, here we are pretending to be celebrities or stars. And we don’t know how to censor ourselves, or how to present ourselves in a way that is articulate and also diplomatic , knowing when to shut up and when not to keep talking. But it’s interesting, it’s interesting, the time we live in, where everybody can point a camera to their face, and they have an audience.

22:07

Yeah, at the same time, you know, it’s the usually it’s the more intelligent people who will need the media training, and they will try to not offend people, while the masses will say anything, you know, with, with social media, kind of pushing people’s voices forward, you know, now everyone talks as if they’re posting on their Facebook wall. And I think I think most people should put a filter of some kind what? Yeah, they’re saying some stupid shit out there. Um, I wanted to ask you, I’m very curious. What do you think of ChatGPT?

22:43

Okay, so I mean, I’ve actually had people ask me last week, like multiple times, it’s just weird. It just comes into the conversation. And here’s why I say I’m not worried for myself as a copywriter. And here’s why ChatGPT is designed to describe and give you information that it thinks it should give you so it’s predicting the next word or whatever. And what it does then is it will pull from different sources, to the point where it’s proven that it’s made up sources. So it’s not factual, it sounds good. That’s ultimately what Chat should be. His job is to sound realistic and good. And this article I recently shared with osmosis from Noam Chomsky, the old school guru of language. He argues that shoots up can never replace human beings because a good writing is understanding context and counterfactuals. When I’m making an argument, I have to think about, well, what about this argument? What about this argument? If I had, like counterfactuals? Is what is asking what if this happened, and you explore that? That’s what good writing is, because you’re exploring all the different sides. And Chachi Beatty can never actually do that, because it’s not thinking that is just pulling different sources on predicting the next thing. Right. So if you are a content writer, and all you do is report facts, or you’re just creating a fun article, like listicles, or whatever, and just pulling from different sources, your job is dead. But if you’re coming up with something like a sales argument, or persuasive thing, or you’re writing a deep, intelligent, insightful analysis or opinion piece, your job is forever secure, because they can never actually do that. I mean, maybe one day like in 500,000 years, we will finally get to the point where computers can think at that level, but it’s hard for me to think that would ever happen because software by nature is one and zeros. It’s just it just thinks that way whereas we still haven’t figured we haven’t fully figured out how the brain works and why we are able to, to play counterfactuals like the fact that I can think about what if I said something really offensive to ego right now? Like I can play that out in my mind and not do it.

25:17

Interesting. So you’re saying the ChatGPT cannot go down an if scenario, even if prompted to?

25:24

Yeah, it can do what it thinks it should do and based on other sources, but like it doesn’t have the ability to play all the different arguments it’s had because it doesn’t have a head.

25:38

Ah, so it can only base itself on existing information. It can’t really come imagine

25:45

I cannot imagine what Noam Chomsky is arguing. Ted Chang who wrote a rival short story, they eventually became the movie by Denny Villeneuve. He also had an article out, I don’t remember what his argument was. But again, like, here’s two very smart people talking about how Chachi PT can’t replace humans to a certain level, right? I mean, like, at the biz op level, what a lot of people are doing with Chuck up? Yeah, of course, go ahead and do that. That will replace a lot of work. And again, like we’ve for like the Wall Street report, and we’ve had this for like, almost 10 years now. Right? Like, you put a robot in there, they’ll tell you like, oh, yesterday, the stock went up this much in this stock went up this much. And reach it summarizes the earnings report for you. That’s satchel information. But it’s not gonna replace Warren Buffett, right? It’s not gonna replace a smart investor like Carl Icahn or like, you know, these people that they think a certain way that cannot really be replaced? I mean, if we could replace that there would be a lot more billionaires in the world.

26:56

Right, right. So do you think we’ll ever get to a point of like, having actual, you know, Western world style robots that can think?

27:08

I don’t know that. That is a question that’s beyond my scope. But like, based on what I’ve read, it’s just not possible right now. Like, maybe? I don’t know, like, I don’t know, I really don’t know. I don’t want to say anything. Go ahead.

27:25

What is it? What do you think of a bunch of really smart people like Elon Musk, who are trying to ban charge up T for or in similar programs from developing for the next six months?

27:39

Um, I don’t think that would do much because science and technology has just moved forward no matter what. And based on what we’ve seen with Elon Musk’s decision making over the last 12 months, I get a sense that there’s more political reasons involved because the Chachi video was created by him as a way to fade the other guy, but like, now they’re not, he sold his shares in Chachi. PD and now he’s starting up a fight. What’s going on there? Like there’s something else going on?

28:14

Okay, that’s a perspective I haven’t considered.

28:19

Oh, man, right. Some old man met the other guy because they own a GPT chat together, and then he sold it. And he bought Twitter. It’s like, all right. What are you really doing? Like, I’m very suspicious of Elon Musk’s moves these days, because he’s just not like it, especially with the way he’s handled Twitter. It’s just like, huh, okay. All right. Maybe you’re not as smart as we think you are? Oh, no, I think he’s pretty smart. I just think Yeah, but like, I’m also saying he’s not as smart as we think he is. Like, maybe not. Yeah, he’s created this was brilliant. Yeah.

28:54

How would you mean, I understand what you mean. Okay, interesting. Well, my take on tragic Beauty and the ability to reason and to do an exercise or to imagine things or to think a certain way? I think I don’t subscribe to the same belief as Noam Chomsky, obviously, I’m not as educated about that. And I’m not, I don’t claim to have any expertise in anything, really. But I do believe that the age of something like Cheju, PT, or similar form of software, being able to think in a certain way, and as being able to teach it to think a certain way, at least based on the existing profiles, like you know, such as Warren Buffett, such as Elon Musk and Henry Ford and whatnot, you know, people who left their memoirs behind and you know, who we can study their decision making process over the course of a timeline. I think we’re close to the to the era where we can, you know, employ a Warren Buffett in a decision making process about Yes,

29:56

So let me be clear that you can absolutely use chat UBG to train yourself because if you look at Carl Magnussen, that guy got good really quickly because he grew up in an age of AI chess. So he was training himself in a way that’s never been trained before. But it still requires the human brain to absorb all that knowledge and to play the way he plays. Right? So you can use it as a training program to learn all the different ways in different scenarios and what if some possibilities but it’s not going to replace you?

30:40

Right? Okay. Do you think changing T will make us dumb it will make us smarter people smarter and leave everybody else behind that, that that has become the story of the last 20 years like the top 1% keeps getting more whether it be wealthy, intelligent, women, spouses, whatever it like it’s just it, if you’re already smart, you’re going to use the tools and whatever to make yourself even smarter and capture more of the audience. Scott Galloway talked about how star teachers are becoming star teachers because of the internet now so now we have a whole bunch of teachers and universities don’t that don’t have the star power. And they’re not getting a large share of the audience. They stuck all the way. Went from Stern, New York. I don’t know if he still teaches there. But now he has his own school program. And he’s making more money, because he’s got internet distribution. So it’s like it’s one of those situations like, it’s gonna leave a lot of people behind. And hopefully evolution catches up and raises the bar for everyone. But it will create a lot of inequality. That’s really what it will keep doing.

32:01

I think you’re spot on. I can find a reason to disagree with you on this one, to be honest, like the gap between the rich and the poor or the smart not so smart. It’s obvious how insane it is right now. And I think Yuval Harare, right, spoke many times about it, how in the future, this is where we’re heading, like, the gap in inequality. Yeah. And speaking of the school system, this has been a fascinating thing to observe, to be honest with you since the development of Judge EBT. What’s the impact it’s been having on schools, universities? It seems like they’re just afraid of it, and they try to ban it in every way possible. Well, what’s your take on this? What do you think ChatGPT and similar technology will do to the education system?

32:51

I’m gonna go back to that same argument that I shared with Noam Chomsky, it’s like it can’t replace well thought out essays. Can it help them do research on boring, straightforward essays? Absolutely. Again, if you’re just recording sacks, and just putting together a well-reasoned argument, fine. But if you’re like taking to the next level, which good academia should do, which is like, explore new things and put new thought and insight into it, it can’t because it doesn’t exist yet. So recently, what happened was chat up, a lot of sci fi writers and fantasy writers started submitting shit ton of fantasy and sci fi stories to the magazines and flooded them. And this is probably what’s going to happen next, academia, like a lot of students are gonna be lazy and put through an essay. So ultimately, what will happen is you’re going to make a lot of professors and TAs pissed off, because the other marketing essays they know were written by Chuck Beatty, because you can tell because the writing is not good. And they’re just gonna be mad. And I think a lot of people will just, eventually I’ll clean myself up hopefully, by like, the good people, again, like the gap, the smart people would write original essays with new thoughts and ideas, will get their doctorates and Master’s and whatever, whereas the people are cheating will. They won’t learn anything. And what’s more, though, make the system work.

34:17

You know, my take on the whole system, I have an issue with the education system because observing my kids in that system, I feel that the system’s number one purpose is not to educate the kids, but rather to preserve its own existence. It feels like the system is not built in a way to prevent it being destroyed. Because something like Cheju beauty or AI, or ability to raise the bar for everyone, you know, will force the education system to be completely reevaluated. And in my opinion, it should be destroyed completely and built from the ground up in the modern age. Because the system was created centuries ago, centuries ago, when you know, there was manual labor, when there were repetitive tasks, when we needed people just to do basic research. Now, none of these things are required. Now most things like when was the last time you calculated something without using a tool or software or a calculator? When was the last time? You know, you, you use the dictionary? You know, this was the craziest thing. When my daughter went to school here in Canada, you know, in the first or the second grade, they actually made her get a dictionary and go use the dictionary. Who uses the dictionary? Why? There’s Wikipedia? There’s Google, there’s Google translators, and everything is all these tools. Why would we possibly in the dictionary? Yeah, if the internet gets disconnected? And if all the devices in the world stop working? Fine. But honestly, what are the chances of that happening? Exactly?

35:58

What’s great about your daughter, right now she’s in fifth grade, I really said, I mean, just the problem with the Canadian education system, and I could be wrong. But just because I’m not an expert, and I’m just talking on my ass. But like, it really depends on your district, I say, select for my kids in the Tri Cities area near Vancouver. They’ve been using Wikipedia and calculators and they learned from recent online research. And again, I don’t want to be, I’m not, I’m not bragging. To have my kids in a gifted program where they’re more cutting edge maybe. So I mean, it really depends on where, what kind of teacher you get, and what program you get into. So like both my kids did NaNoWriMo. So they were learning about the structure of stories. And we have a very cool teacher who’s teaching them about not just Joseph Campbell’s store at the circle, but she also teaches them like save the cat, which is like 12 beats in a movie. And she’s breaking down the narrative in a totally different way. Again, I think it really depends on your teacher and your district. I don’t know if it’s like maybe on the administrator, Minister Ativ side is trying to preserve itself. But like, I think teachers in general, they’re underrated, underpaid, and a lot of them were like, the smart ones are doing things that are different and new. And there, they’re well aware that there’s a lot of things that they need to prepare our kids for that are not taught anymore. I just compare their experience with mine in the 80s. And it’s just that it is different. And again, it totally depends on where you’re at. This. I mean, we’re both Canadians. And I think what you’re saying could be right about the American education system. I mean, the fact that they don’t teach phonetics just still drives me crazy. Like for some reason, they decided now we’re gonna teach sight reading instead of phonetics. And it just blows my mind that that is still happening in the American education system.

38:10

Yeah, well, like I said, the system is trying to preserve itself, because any change is usually met with a ridiculous amount of bureaucracy, unions and a bunch of other stuff. I agree with you when you say that teachers are really important, and that a teacher can make a difference in children’s lives. But I haven’t seen too many teachers trying things outside the system. You know, my daughter goes to private school. And I thought by sending her to private school, I’ll have the benefit of her being more advanced and you know, getting access to better tools and having no

38:47

No I private school is even more conservative, did their Trump preserve the wage even more? You know, what you’re paying for a private school is supposedly a higher level of teachers and students, right? But like the 8020 rule applies everywhere. Like you pay for it, you cannot pay for it, and it’s still gonna happen.

39:10

Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. And it’s, for me, terrible. Like I is one of the things that I find myself dreaming about on a weekly basis. I don’t even bother showing up for teacher parent conferences. I don’t bother looking at her report cards. You know, I still try to contain my own little program outside of for sure. You know, and it’s been a hidden Miss, you know, really depends. Like, I got her. I started her by learning coding a couple of years back. We’re doing a lot of work with music. There’s a lot of work with storytelling that actually makes her read books and write stories for me as well. The other day, she took initiative and she did a presentation for me and my wife about all the reasons why she should get a dog. Yeah, you know, she knew she had like a whole keynote going, you know, like with sales arguments, to which I said, Hey, this is actually pretty neat. And I really like what you’ve done here. And I think what the, there’s something missing. And that is all the negative aspects of owning a dog. So I want you to go and do some research to explore these chairs too if you have to. And she went on to, you know, she has got a friend who has a dog and her friends like, yeah, when the dog is really expensive. And you have to do this, you have to get a sitter if you’re flying. So all of a sudden, you know, that balance is the whole conversation. Yeah, I really liked that. But you know, of all things. There’s another aspect of the education system that I, I really, really hate. And that is that the kids are being taught to shut up. And to not argue with the teacher, the teacher is always right. And if they misbehave, or make noise, they get punished. And I’ve seen both in my four year olds, kindergarten as well as in my daughter’s school. So I’ve been trying to instill in them the desire, and the understanding that it’s okay to break the rules. Yeah, for sure. No, the school rules are there to just control you because there’s only so many teachers and there’s like hundreds of you guys. So they need to control you. That’s what the rules are for. And, and I’ve really noticed this with my four year old, because he’s a boy. And you know, I expected that, as a boy, he’s supposed to be rowdy and loud, and then crash the cars and you know, shoot the guns and, you know, you fight with other kids and you get in trouble. But he’s been very quiet. He’s been very, you know, I found out why? Because anytime that he opens his mouth, or he does something, you know, he basically gets scolded, right. Yeah, and I’ve been I’ve been actually working consistently with the teachers in this kindergarten and instilling in them the understanding that I don’t believe that they are the be all end, all right, I want them to encourage dialogue, I want them to encourage, you know, that sort of behavior and even made sure that my son is present, when I’m discussing this with them, and making him you know, have a say in the conversation. It’s a process. We’re gonna keep working on it. But if just left his own devices, I think in a few years’ time, he will be very obedient. You know what I mean? And for someone who’s been rebelling against authority since about 18. I know I find it to be frustrating.

42:53

So again, I feel like we’re having different experiences. My kids are more than happy to debate and discuss with your teachers. It depends, again, it depends on the program. But you’re absolutely right in that used to supplement, right. I mean, as an Asian parent, of course, you’re doing music, of course, you’re doing extracurricular. So I’d been my son, he’s 16 years now. But he’s been coding since he was eight, when we put into various coding programs, and now he can do it on his own. And you as the education system can only do so much. And like. And again, just as maybe controversial, but like whenever I look at kids who are doing well, and the kids who aren’t, at the end of the day, it’s because they have a mom or dad who puts in the effort. Right? Right. I mean, they care more there, they actually ask about the grades you’re helping with the homework. The Disclosure system was never meant to be like, hey, we’re going to do everything for you, you’re still with a parent, and you still have to do these things. And the fact that your daughter is doing these presentations on our own is awesome. And that’s required. Like by like, I’ve been giving parenting books to my kids, like ever since they were kids, like my oldest read Rich Dad, Poor Dad when he was five. So like, he’s aware of how the system works. Maybe I’m exaggerating for you. I was six or seven. But as soon as he was able to read, it’s a very basic book, right? It’s not difficult. It’s just more of the concept. So like, yeah, he understands how the world works on the money side. Is he actually going to do anything with it? I don’t know. I don’t care. But at least those concepts are there. I also gave him a car economics book. So he understands how the economy works, too. So it’s like, and I’m not too worried about the school system because I know my kids will turn out like me, they’re going to have that streak of rebellion and they’re going to have that streak of anti-authority, they’re going to be witty and clever. I mean, they already are like, they’re very clever people, like, and they’ll go talk back to me. And I’ll be proud of it, right? Because that’s exactly how I want them to react. So I was like, am I worried about the school system? Not really not on? Good. My experience has been fine. But it could be because my kids are just, they play the game a different way? I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t want to. I don’t want to trash the school system. Because it’s such a common thing for the intranet. Crowds get rich conscious to do that. Right. It’s like the school system with it that I get it. It’s not teaching them the things they need to know. But it’s like, at the same time, why aren’t your parents stepping in and doing what you’re supposed to be doing? So like, when I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, when I was 20, I was like, I was pissed off at the school system and taught me anything about money and taught me anything about relationships, and taught me anything about health. But it’s like, well, is that the school’s job? Is that really the school’s job? Shouldn’t your parents be teaching you how to make money, or like investing the hours now rather than 42? And like 20 years, removed from Rich Dad, Poor Dad and my being angry at it? Probably not. Like it should teach maybe basic nutrition. And I remember doing taxes and coming up with a business plan in grade 10. So like, I got a bit of it, right. But like, at the end of the day, like, where do you learn investing is from your parents? And like you going out there and doing it yourself?

46:39

No, you’re right, you’re right. And I understand what you’re saying. I’m definitely one of those bitter, you know, people who make money, people who are upset with the school system, and with my parents doing funny things, my parents, especially my dad, you know, he could have taught me things. Because he was alright, you know, he eventually started out in the Soviet Army, then he got out, started his own business and made some terrible investments. But then he kind of gave up, you know, like, he had a few failures and some health issues. And he never continued so, but he did teach me a few things. I think that helped me along the way. Many things he taught me, by the way, he led by example of not what not to do. Yeah, like a lot of things that he did, were really terrible. And so I kind of knew what I shouldn’t be doing. But, you know, huge compliments to you, man for really being involved in your children’s lives and making them read all the right books. That’s, that’s epic. I’ve never met anyone, even, you know, people who make a ridiculous amount of money actually make their kids read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, when they’re like, six.

47:52

I didn’t make them. I just gave him a message. Good. And he read it. So

47:56

Wow. That’s incredible. How are you as a parent? How are you? Did you notice anything about the way the personality of your children like, how it differs? And like, does it not have a say in how they learn or how they behave? Or how we grow up? But

48:19

Yeah, like, I mean, my oldest is even more logically intelligent than I am. That’s why he’s, he’s got a he’s probably a good fit for coding. And my wife is very much aware of that and just tries her best to make sure she doesn’t fall into that trap of being that typical antisocial nerd. And I think we’ve done a fairly good job. And we will see as he grows older, but it’s like, did he still say things that come off as rude, or he’s not socially aware, but like, we work on that. So like, every kid will have, you know, a different thing that they got from you or your wife. And it’s just, you just have to, hopefully even out the edges and give them that Headstart that you didn’t have. And it sounds like you were your parents here. Were the immigrant parents the typical grew up poor type of deal. Yeah, I typically grew up poor. Yeah, yeah. So it’s like data and half the tools and again, it’s hard to blame, like, Yes, I was angry. I’m in my teens and in my 20s. But like, as you grow older, you realize how difficult it is to raise a family, especially with the income they have. It’s as if they did their best, right but now obviously, you and me, we’ve lived a quote unquote American dream, but in Canada, we have a lot more resources. We’ve had a lot more education, we’ve had a lot more experiences and were able to pass that on and that’s, you know, that’s the right to keep growing so that each successive generation has more tools and resources to build a more stable life. So that’s what we have that our parents didn’t have. And I think another Houston advantage that I have with my kids that my parents never did is like that cultural gap. So like, we know, when I went camping, I came home and said, Hey, I did White Rock, whitewater rafting, he’d be like, what shot I had no idea what that is. Because you know, just as a guy that grew up like communists did now. And he got his way to Canada. And it’s like, there’s just a gap of experience you never had, like, the only reason he’s watching hockey these days is because I was into hockey when I was in grade six, and seven. And like, you know, all these things that he never had. So like, when I talk to my son, like I found out a few years ago, he was playing Counter Strike. He’s like, why are you playing a 20 year old game? It’s like, what is what the kids are doing? But I did talk to him about it. Right, that kind of experience I have with my son my father could never have with me because I grew up in the culture here. And that’s just another advantage that you get that our parents never had, like, you’ve read all these books already. You’ve watched these movies and you can pass them on. Whereas for my parents, like they’re still stuck on. Oh, yeah, this movie I watched in Hong Kong was really good. Yeah. Okay, but nobody here in America I’ve ever seen. Yeah, you’re absolutely

51:17

Correct. There are some universal experiences that we all can relate to. And as a copywriter, I always try to pick up on those but you’re absolutely right. Like when I came to Canada, having grown up in Israel, and before that in poverty in Ukraine, you know, I was like everyone’s got a cottage as a second home and you know, people do this and do that and have all these hobbies and stuff. And even hockey, you know, to me, hockey is just some, you know, really weird random sport almost because no one I knew when I was growing up, played hockey in either Ukraine, or Israel. Yeah. But you do pose a Greek question. Why do people still play Counter Strike, a 20 year old game?

51:58

It’s a well-run system. It’s kind of like, what’s the SuperS not street fighter but the mark done Nintendo one to know the Nintendo one where it’s like, although famous Mario characters apparently the first one that came out on 64. Like, it’s just perfectly balanced. And it’s still used in tournaments in Las Vegas to this day, and I get a feeling I’m assuming that that’s what Counter Strike still is, is so well, ballers that it just works. Plus, it’s free at this point. So like, all the kids use it to practice on me, they’ll play other games, but like, I was just blown away. We were like, a few years ago, when I saw I’m playing Counter Strike.

52:38

Counter Strike has a really big player base. And it was really popular when I was a kid.

52:43

Yeah, when it first came out.

52:46

Exactly like it’s got over 1 million players playing at any given time.

52:53

It isn’t. It isn’t I know,

52:57

I know. But then you’re looking at all the things that Call of Duty has to do to keep people engaged. And then you’ve got something like see CSGO what? It doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever. But great question though. Why do people play Counter Strike? 20 years later? Should definitely do an investigative article on something like that. Cohen, we’re out of time.

53:21

Oh, my God is a great guy. Yeah,

53:23

I know. I know. It really flew. So for people who want to get more of your thoughts and opinions and knowledge tidbits where can they go? What’s your Twitter, what’s your website? Where can we find out more?

53:43

Sure. osmosis.dev Is my newsletter. So every Tuesday, I am up every month. I’m reading two to three books on human behavior marketing storytelling. We summarize what they are and I share my best insights in that newsletter every week. If you want to follow me on Twitter it is Colin YJ chum. There it’s more of if you want just copywriting and freelancing tips, that’s where it is. That’s my public persona. But if you want deep insightful stuff that is osmosis.

54:17

Yeah. I highly recommend subscribing to a really good newsletter and not just the books you’re picking but also the way you approach them. The surprising opinion you’ll have about something like that because yeah, the book itself is valuable to read but then hearing an opinion of someone smart about what they’ve just read. Just like we’ve discussed the things about chatty petite today. You know, I’ve been debating the judge up tea quite a bit and I haven’t investigated what Noam Chomsky says about that and so the whole perspective about Cheju patina on being able to come up with original ideas and to do a what if rabbit hole exercise because that’s new to me something I’ll have to explore. So, again, thank you for taking the time. Pleasure. I hope I can host you soon again, because this has been tremendous.

55:11

Yeah, that would love to be bet. Thank you so much for having me.

55:18

Thank you for listening to the list building lifestyle, get access to the previous episodes transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also, remember to claim your free copy of my bestselling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how I made millions with list building starting from scratch. Plus, I’ll give you $3,000 worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Go to www.igorsbook.com. Now to claim your free package.