Building Profitable Partnerships With Kyle Kostechka

Hi, I’m Igor Kheifets, and this is the list building lifestyle. The podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my bestselling book The List Building Lifestyle Confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus a $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now it’s time to claim your list building lifestyle

00:52

Welcome back to the list building lifestyle. I’m your host Igor Kheifets. And today I’ve got a really special guest : Kyle from Clickbank. I have no idea what Kale does for Clickbank aside from being their podcast host and somebody was like, got his fingers in all the pies. So, I felt it’d be really cool to bring him out on the Lisbon lifestyle and pick his brain about what it takes to manage a JV affiliate program basically how to attract the best partners, how to keep the best partners and how to make sure they actually go promoting so these apps is going to be all about that. So, if you are an affiliate marketer and you’re on the other side of that, I think you’re going to learn quite a few things. And if you’re a vendor, if you’re somebody with a product and you’re either got an affiliate program that isn’t really going anywhere, or you’re thinking about starting one, then you’re going to find a lot of value in this episode. So, Kyle, welcome to the list building lifestyle. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here. Great to talk to your audience and I’d say define what I do at Clickbank but I can’t figure that out. And my wife just says I do accounting, which is not what I do at all and haven’t done that for years. But she just thought it was like that, that was the easiest thing for her to remember. So, I’ve just been an accountant for the last decade to my wife. So, we ‘re not the only ones confused.

02:09

Yeah, but I see you everywhere though. You’re like you’ve become the unofficial poster child for Clickbank. In the last I’d say two years or so there’s So, obviously Thomas, but it kind of feels like he’s stepped away from the spotlight a bit. And now you’re the main guy in the spotlight. He brought me in and they said he’s too good looking. We need somebody else. And so, I was like I could fill that role.

02:33

I needed someone under six feet so it’s less intimidating to talk to them in person. Yeah, I remember reading a book about Have you read when Bigley? No, I haven’t. It’s about how Trump won the election against Hillary Clinton. And there’s that title that sounded familiar. Yeah. Yeah. So, there’s a portion of that book. First, an amazing persuasion book. Like if you’re into persuasion, you should read it, especially the one-to-many persuasion because it actually breaks down lots of Trump’s tricks. You know, like the reason why he kept shouting that we need to build a wall. We need a wall, a big wall showing like one-to-many wall, and all kinds of stuff like that. There’s a lot of strategy to his perceived madness.

03:17

And so anyway, that book has a little portion that’s devoted to his vice president. No, I think Mike Pence, I think yep, the name. Yep. Mike Pence. And on the fly. Can’t forget the fly on Mike Pence. And pence his face. Yeah. Election tennis. Yeah. So, there were like, there would disagree to discussing like, what’s the protocol and criteria for picking the right vice president candidate. So, you can’t pick somebody who’s like, obviously really bad, because nobody wants to vote for him. And you can’t pick anyone who will outshine Trump or, you know, a main candidate, right. So, you have to pick somebody who’s right there in the middle. You know, not too good. Not too bad. Not too handsome, not too ugly. You know what I mean? And it feels like you know that Thomas stepped out of the picture. They kind of brought you in, they brought in Yeah, you’re the vice president, please make. Yes, that sounds great. That sounds good. I love it. I love it. And I guess one thing to build there would be great for what you brought in today. I’d say the best way to find what I do now, because you’re right. It’s a lot of different things to talk to a lot of different people, learn a lot of different information, and look at a lot of data on our end. But really, I’ve just become more of an affiliate consultant. So, if you have affiliates, or you’d like to use affiliates, it doesn’t really matter what type of affiliates or whatever business you have, there’s a good chance that I could recommend or advise you on the best way to do that or the best affiliate program to get started with because it is different. It’s different for every single business, every single person and every single offer. So just knowing the right things and pulling the right levers can help you succeed out of the gate. 

05:00

So, I have an idea which I know we could talk about today. And hopefully get the listeners some value and some more affiliates by the end of this or at least get more out of the affiliates they already have. Oh, yeah. And before, before we do that, I really want to do like a bit of a, you know, blow a little bit of a smoke up your ass.

05:20

Can you give us some numbers? It’s really interesting. Like, for example, how many, how many affiliates are under management? Does Clickbank have it right now? Oh, boy. I mean, that’s So, a moving number. And it always is defined by maybe a ballpark range. Yeah, yeah, nonsense. So, like, we have 1000s of new signups on our platform every single day. So that people are signing up creating a count of those that are actively managed. I can’t give an exact number. I would imagine it sounds like Eve, it’s So, in that it’s in the five to six figure range, I believe on active affiliates at a given timeframe.

05:58

And I think, you know, if you look holistically the whole number, it’s well, probably in the seven figures of accounts, that that have had some sale within, you know, a defined period of time within the last 812 18 months. So, there’s a lot there as for who you would define as actively promoting within the last 30 days that we know that number fluctuates in between high five to probably six figure range somewhere, right? Okay. How many? How much money? Just gross revenue? That’s Clickbank processing day? I don’t I can’t say those numbers because a private company was supposed to hold that. But I could tell you it is. It is quite a bit. Another example. I can’t tell you, then away we range between ridiculous and disgusting.

06:53

I’d like to say disgusting because it makes it sound better. But I’ll give you an example. So, we are running enough on our mids on a daily basis that we process that we have clients that go from zero sales, to they’ll do a fixed cart launch. And the next day they’ve been they’ve hit between two to $3 million in sales that day without any additional reserves without even a sniffer attention or a care from our banks and processors. So just select the volume to run. Yeah, if you’ve lost in the volume, yes, just give me like, give that idea that we could we could have a three, you know, say three, 4 million spikes in revenue in a day. And it does not attract the attention of our mind’s processors. So, if that gives you kind of at least a sense of how much the word processing trans Oh, that’s ridiculous. This is a lot of data. A lot of data for sure. Yeah. Lots of disgusting data. Yes, yes. Dirty, disgusting data. And as an accounting major, I love it. I love to get inside it and play around and see what it tells Oh, you’re the spreadsheet guy. Yeah, I’m a spreadsheet guy, for sure. So, you know, I look at a spreadsheet, I honestly just makes me numb. It’s just a man it is it’s one of my favorites, a good spreadsheet. But I always tell this, like stats, stats will tell him the truth you want them to. So, numbers don’t lie. But so, stats do. So, you have too always be careful with that. Analytics is the process of taking numbers and turning them into a lie. So, but we just click and everyone gets really excited about it. Yeah, I kind of see that, you know, I’m I follow football, the Premier League. And it’s like, there’s lots of channels on YouTube that would break down data and statistics and progressing passes per 90, and this and that. And it’s like, you got two or three, like core YouTubers that are into numbers. And anytime there’s a big game, or there’s a big player coming into a new club, you know, they start breaking down their stats. And it’s like three different people breaking down the same numbers in three different ways. And they go like one would be like, this is a mediocre player. They don’t want to be like this as a world class player. And the other one would be like, why do they even bother getting this player at all? This is like absolute, you know, dog poop. So, it’s not, but they’re all looking at the same numbers and just manipulate these numbers in different ways. Like, oh, let’s take a look at the goals he scored between just So, this calendar year. And the other guy would be like, let’s look at the goals. He scores for this whole career. And the goal would be like, let’s look at the goals. He scored only for this one club that he played for him. And it’s like it’s the same thing with analytics. Yep. Let’s look at the stats only between, you know, these two weeks, let’s look at refund rates versus the whole thing. Let’s not do this. And it’s just it’s never it’s never just a concrete black and white. You’re doing well. You’re not doing well or fixing this. It’s always like having to manipulate them. Totally. 

10:00

And I think it’s funny because it’s like, it’s really two reasons, primary reasons why I think one is the reason that we all hate and I think some people get disenchanted with analytics is that you could just say whatever you want and use the numbers to justify it afterwards. It’s not really analytics, right? It’s just saying, I have this thing, the self-affirming bias, and I’m just going to make stuff up until it fits into that it’s not true. It’s just my ability to make up a false argument. And I think the other really big thing of analytics is like you’re finding the margins; you’re finding the correlations. I watched rewatched, The Big Short recently, I mean, that’s a perfect example of analytics working so well that no one believed that it was the true thing, because it was so crazy, quote, unquote, but margins; that’s where the numbers in analytics can be very, very truthful. And you could find those signs beforehand. So, I always say it depends on how Analytics works. When you understand the utility of the analysis, I think it is probably the best way to go about it. So why they analyze it a certain way, will tell you a lot more about the analytics and the actual numbers. Well, I don’t know why we went out that route. But I’m not sure either. But it’s, it’s cool to talk about numbers of Yeah, exactly. Because we will talk about more later, I’m sure today, with So, affiliate stuff. I mean, but honestly, like how many people do you know who are extremely successful, and then the business of marketing products and services that aren’t obsessed about a particular set of numbers? Maybe they want to be obsessed about all the numbers. But there’s like, I’ve got three or four different numbers that I always look at to know whether I’m doing well, or? Yeah, well, I would say the big thing is analytics, when you’re dealing on the margins, and you want to look at small trends, it requires a lot of data. Most companies are far too small to have the volume of data to really get into the nitty gritty and the deep analysis that I think you could get effective macro trends or micro trends, whatever you need, right? Oftentimes, we’re making jumps and leaps off tiny little datasets, which are super volatile, and super unreliable. To truly take something from the sample sizes are too small. If we want to use a sports analogy, as we look at like, you know, college, the NFL starting, it’s like you just drafted a player number one overall, and they’ve played five games. Now those five games might have been the greatest thing you’ve ever seen before. But boy, you don’t know if that’s going to maintain there’s a lot of unknown. And it’s similar when you’re doing analytics on small datasets. And that’s why we see a lot of entrepreneurs oftentimes get too caught up in the numbers. When in reality, it’s like, what’s your bottom line? How do you bring customers in? How can you bring more in and do it profitably? Right? Like? Those are simple questions, you can get way too many analytics for very simple answers to I think, sometimes not basic problems, but big problems. Big problems don’t only have easy answers that are hard to execute. Yeah, you know, so speaking about numbers and analytics, let’s So, have a smooth transition over to George.

12:55

Just slide it up now. So, the one thing as somebody who has an affiliate program will be several actually, you know, over the years, I’ve had at least 10 of them with a couple have been very successful and most not So, very successful. You know, there are a certain number of metrics that experienced affiliates tend to one to know, you know, you so in other words, like, it’s really hard for me to imagine anyone being able to attract a, you know, a high-quality affiliate somebody who can, you know, one affiliate can really change your business, like there are some affiliates, like I had this affiliate, run my offer six, maybe eight weeks ago. I mean, the guy brought in over $20,000, just high-quality on his own, like this is, this is not like changing money for me at this point. But 10 years ago, that would have been life changing. You know, for some people, that’s definitely life changing money. So, I guess, in your experience, what have you noticed when it comes to metrics or numbers that you want to have in place? Or did you want to know where those affiliates that you’re talking to always ask about? Yeah. Well, and I’ll do the first one, nothing like answering questions with more questions. But one thing I’d tell you is it really does depend on a lot of information in terms of who are the affiliates? What are their traffic sources? What is your vertical? What is your offer, in terms of what numbers might matter? So, the first answer that question is really do you know, in your vertical, what numbers are important? So, say, if you’re running a webinar model, or like a fixed cart launch, you know, your OPT in rates and your OPT in conversion really gonna matter? Because as an affiliate most likely, I know my ability to get leads, I probably have a pretty good idea of how many leads that I could send. So really care from lead to conversion, what that number is, because that’s gonna give me a good idea to say, how much money am I going to make off this launch? But if you’re not doing a webinar, no one’s gonna care about those numbers. 

15:00

In fact, if you say you’re driving a supplement, you know, the number one number that people care about is your average order value first. So, if you’re not over $200, your average order value, if I’m a media buying affiliate, I’m not even going to try your offer. If you can’t offer me a minimum value of 120, CPA right now, most of the top media buyers are not going to even look or think about trying your offer, unless you have a good relationship with them already. So, the numbers could change quite a bit based on your So, vertical. But I would say you know, some core numbers, you always need to know, you need to know your conversion rates, you need to know your EPC is your earnings per click. And I would also know your average order value, those are going to be key things I’ve never seen somebody not want to know that information. So, know those and then really understand what you need to know about them. So, if you’re saying EPCs, what is good in your range, what is a good number based on the types of traffic. 

15:55

So, a good example here too, is your email EPCs depending on where your email list is, sometimes there’s going to be higher than what you have on your cold traffic. Sometimes there’ll be substantially lower, it changes so much based on vertical. But for example, going back to health. So EPCs, on email, if I’m seeing something around 150 to $2, fantastic, really, really doing well. And sometimes you’ll see that be quite a bit higher on a warmer list, to where I would want to expect to see something around four to $5 EPCs, for that specific list. But email, that’s going to be good. If you’re doing paid media at lower volume, you should be closer to two to $3 on your EPC. Because we know that’s going to drop when scale hits. So, there’s some general barometers there. But we flip that over to spirituality. I mean that vertical, if you’re getting $1 EPC, you are crushing it right. So, the standard really changes that if a V changes, it’s going to drop a ton. But the conversion rates on those are probably quadruple, definitely more than double what you’re getting in the health and fitness space. So, you know, things can supplement. So, things could really change based on the dynamics of your offer, so what I kind of flip around and really say that you need to ask yourself for what for the affiliates you want? What are the numbers that they want to know? And if you don’t understand, ask him. It’s a really big mistake. Because oftentimes, we assume what we know, is what we know for everything. And it changes really real fast. So, I would tell you, if you’re not sure, if you haven’t talked to other affiliates in your vertical, you don’t know what numbers they care about. And if yours are good or bad, you need to ask somebody to start off in your first affiliate conversation, what does success look like to you? What is the successful offer going to look like in terms of the number of clicks that you expect to send? So, and what’s the number that you’re going to measure and say this did good or bad with because that also ranges changes from affiliate to affiliate. I know some people that only look at the revenue that is brought in. Others measure it purely on EPC. Others measure just on you know, their row as that they had on their spent. So, there’s just a lot of different factors that could change from affiliate to affiliate. So just ask the question, don’t assume just ask, get clarification, and documented. So as soon as you ascend, you already know if you’ve done good or bad, you now go from being reactive, and waiting to see when the affiliate thought to knowing that it was good or bad and getting to be ahead of that interaction. So, I kind of already jumped into some affiliate management stuff. But yeah, that’s how to answer that kind of thing. Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m starting to build off at some points, like lots of technical stuff there. No, I’m just kidding. This is very rigorous. This is something that took me years to understand, too. But you did mention something very, I think that’s probably more important. And so, that is, like you said something like, unless you already know them. Well, unless you already have a relationship with them. I think that’s very powerful. I’ve seen people run, like, I’m on everybody’s list. 

18:50

It’s just me. I’ll admit, I’m spying on everybody. Yeah, I’m like, I’m the email Eagle Eye. AKA the Igor, I watch your sorrow watching email. Right.

19:05

So sometimes I see, you know, big, big marketers, big affiliates mailing. you’re smelling crap. There’s just melee, like, why would you mail that? And I arrive at only one conclusion, that is that there’s not a relationship, there must be a relationship between the affiliate and the owner of that offer. And you also see this all the time where the same affiliates support the same product launches are the same vendors all the time. Like it’s almost like they’re a little clique around the industry. Like for example, Jeff Walker, right. I’ve never connected with him on a personal level. Never. One time I met him, I took a selfie with him from the back little clique from 2016. But you know, I’ve never been in his circles because I’ve never been part of his like high-ticket masterminds. I noticed that for them

20:00

Most part that’s, that’s the people in his circle. And when I noticed that there’s like a certain number of people that will go and promote his launch. Every year, literally every single year, I see the mailing that launches no matter what, even though they’ve mailed that product, it’s gazillion times before everybody on their list has probably seen it. They’ll just keep mailing it and keep mailing it. It’s like the old days, the good old days. I don’t know if you remember this, but the syndicates so you know, Ryan Desis. Yep, Eben Pagan, right? All these guys like who are just in a clique together, and they just support each other. So, I would love to hear your thoughts on relationships. And I would love to hear your thoughts on how we go about creating and strengthening those relationships as vendors, especially when we’re brand new and stepping into that circle? In our industry? Yeah, definitely. Well, I in your, you really hit the nail on the head that relationships matter the most. And that’s not to say a relationship without value isn’t significant, right, you need to still deliver something to that relationship. It’s not a we’re not looking at, you know, parasitic relationships where you just suck a bleed all the value from them and give nothing back. But it matters. And it’s one of the things where this world is very big, it becomes very, very small and narrow at the top. So, who you know, can really, really change what happens. And one of the reasons I think it’s really, really key is, when you have a hot offer, everyone wants to know you when you have the offer that’s converting, that everyone wants to send out. That’s great. You know, now relationship building becomes really easy, because you’re the hot you’re the hot person in the room. Everyone wants a piece of that offer. You’re the hot girl. Yeah, yeah, it’s a feeling I can’t say I’ve ever experienced in terms of being a real hot girl in a bar or a club. But you know, having people want to talk to you, that is something I’ve seen, I understand what that could be like. And I see a lot of mistakes. When people are in that space, the two mistakes I see are one, you’re out of that. And so, you’re too intimidated to go forward and have that conversation. And we’ll talk about that in a second. The other one is you got lucky, your first offer was a big one, you are the belle of the ball. And you get in there and you forget that where you might be a big deal right now, you will not be a big deal forever. And early success sometimes is one of the worst things that happen to these entrepreneurs because they assume it’s inevitable. And success will always be replicated, replicable. And you’ll just get it again and again. And again. And Perry Belcher, I remember him talking to me one time, he said, this is like, listen, anytime you see a new offer owner, if they are just crushing it right out of the gate, they need to treat that offer like it’s never going to happen again, invest back in the business for as long as you can build up long standing assets, because you just never know if you’ll ever do it again. And he said I’ve seen too many people never so, hit it ever again. And I agree I’ve seen in my time, you know, seven years in the industry at Clickbank the number of companies that end up being one offer and never getting close to it again is way, way, way, way, way more than companies that repeat time and time again, that beings had to bring that around that. So sometimes these people get the hot offer, they have all the attention. And they tell themselves they don’t need the relationships because they will always have the hot offer. And it’s a huge mistake that they make because they don’t build, they don’t kind of find a way to give back treats, be humble, appreciate the relationships they have grown, develop them. So, when the next offer comms. And if it doesn’t win in the same way the first one does, you don’t lose every relationship that was only predicated on the success of a crazy offer. You get to keep these people you keep them in your circle, you get to continue to learn how they’re succeeding, what they did what they’ve done in their business, as well as you know, you just have kind of that that baked in traffic where they’re going to run offers for you, they’re going to give you test traffic, they’re going to give you feedback. And if you could have that in your business, one the floor of how low you will go just continues to increase right. And you still have that high end ceiling of success that you could potentially hit. But now you’re not, you’re not bottoming out of the barrel. So, if you wrote those relationships, I’ll tell you what, you will just come to this industry, have success and disappear as fast as you might have entered, probably faster if you don’t build those strong relationships really does matter. So, I’ll pause before I go in so I don’t talk too much. But pause before we go into how if you’re new or even if you’re not how to build these relationships, make them strong, but just want to see if you had any thoughts on kind of the pitfalls of not investing in the relationships in the industry that you’ve seen as well. You know, for many years I went

24:49

I kind of got frustrated with the GV game because my first product launch wasn’t Jozo I mean, I have products on Clickbank at the time but my first just like actual launches, I was able to pull off Jozo wasn’t right around the time when JVZoo was just starting. And I can’t say that they weren’t necessarily competing with ClickBank for market share. It was more about like, if you’re going for a very particular type of info products, we will know there’s a lot of the products off our platform that they picked up. So yeah, was that competition at JVZoo? Is that the beginning? That’s right. Yeah. So, Clickbank I launched there. I already had that product on ClickBank, but I put it on JVZoo and launched and gave away 100%, Commission to people. And I think we did like $10,000 in three days. Now. That’s not That’s not big, by most standards. But for me at the time, that was very big. Because at the time, I’m making like 50 bucks a day. So, for me to see so much money comes through my processing account. It was pretty substantial. That’s party-like, for sure. Yeah.

25:55

Oh, yeah. I mean, I was like, I mean, I felt at the top of the world. But immediately, I had a feeling like, what’s next, you know, because once your product launch is over, there’s no more money coming in. And you have to figure out a way to keep that coming. And so, when so, I went through that experience as a as a product launcher,

26:18

I kind of didn’t like the fact that money only comes in for a brief moment in time, and then nothing. And so, what I’ve then done is I’ve decided to focus more on paid media, because paid media would allow me to create a business where I see money coming in every day. Now, I didn’t realize back then that I could also have affiliate traffic coming in on a weekly basis, or whatever it was how we got set up now where we got the paid media, we got the affiliate stuff in parallel, and they don’t necessarily like to cross. But they both bring in something on a weekly basis. And

26:59

I did not build relationships for a long time. I really did. However, with my solid agency, it’s something that I have been doing over the years. And that is, you know, I went and I’ve literally approached people who I felt were potential affiliates. And I was like, trying to get introductions, I would look into their Facebook page and see your friends within if I knew anybody and would ask for an introduction. You know, and it all kind of came to like a big climax.

27:31

When I secured this one affiliate, I had to give them a very custom very specific agreement, because he knew exactly what he wanted. But I knew he was really, really big. I don’t think I knew how big he was. I just knew he was big, because I kept seeing his name on all those leaderboards like literally once a month or you know, every other week, there would be a leaderboard posted somewhere on social media. And this guy was on it all, usually the top three to five people. Yeah, always. Yeah, you know? Yeah. So, solidly he requested a very particular type of affiliate program that I wasn’t even sure if it’s going to be profitable or not. Like I genuinely did not know my numbers at the time. 

28:17

And I was like, okay. And I said, yes, because I really wanted the volume. Yeah. And this guy crushed it. Yeah, the first month. And when we when we signed the agreement, and he started driving traffic, I think the first month alone, he doubled my business, just as one guy that has any kept on pushing very hard for six to eight months or so before his you know, his traffic dwindled down and because before I guess he tapped out his audience.

28:48

But that affiliate would create his first and obviously all the revenue, and it did become profitable eventually. But then other affiliates in that space saw him push me very hard. Yep. And that created the chain reaction of them wanting to get in on the action. So anytime we’d be talking to anybody who might be a potential affiliate. i All I had to do just bring up his name. Yep. And say, well, you know, he just ran this and this and he just sent me this many people and he just made this much I just I just sent him I just PayPal him this much in commissions. Here’s a screenshot. So that alone was enough to convince about 80% of them just to fall in line there with the app only like dominoes and before I knew it within a year, I had like a full network of people promoting now and yeah, you’re totally right. I love the thing. You mentioned one. A couple of things I want to address are some real great wins that talk about the power of those relations between affiliates and one is if you get a top affiliate to promote you not only is it changing the traffic overnight from their volume, but the network effect of other people.

30:00

Since you mentioned you’re on everyone’s list, you’re always looking at offers, right? You’re not alone. I have a large, I caught my honeypot email. And it was just, it looks like I love spam email more than anybody. It’s just littered with all the things. And anytime I need a swipe file, I know where to go, because I think it gets like 50 a day. So, there’s tons in there. But you know what, knowing that everyone’s watching these offers, or watching these big lists, when they see your offer gets sent once or twice to that list. They’re like, oh, dang, this is good. And you’ll see a flood of people, again, really wanting to go and promote that, I will say we’re going to carry on short storytime. You mentioned that they had a very special deal. And you weren’t even sure if you weren’t sure of your numbers. Like I hope I make money off this. I literally, I was hoping, yeah, I will tell you, I’m glad it worked out. But be very cautious. Because I could tell you, I’ve seen those same types of deals, go in what looks like a great thing for business and actually destroy businesses. There are two businesses, I watched a deal like that run through all their cash. So, they lost their cash and lost their business. And they were with the largest health affiliate at the time. They were known to give me 100% commission on your digital offer. And they had asked for a bounty on top of it. So, a CPA on top of 100% commission. So now they would do Yeah, yeah, good job for good, good deal for the affiliate. And they would then drive on this great deal. tons of traffic, we’re talking, you know, you might see their times I saw 10,000. Like they had pushed through like 10,000 more than more than clicks, like 100,000 clicks in a day. And it’d be like 10,000 sales and crazy stuff like crazy numbers, right? can only imagine the fulfillment? Oh, yeah, well, and so the fulfillment and all this stuff, and these people would get this huge influx, and then they’d have to pay up that CPA, to pay all their costs. And now they had no money, they didn’t have money to pay their suppliers, and they had to shut it down. They had to pay this other affiliate, they didn’t have the money for it. So, they had all the success, success without being structured in a way that makes sense. So, one thing I’d tell you know, your numbers, at least know what you need to be profitable. If you cannot be profitable, and you’re looking to float cash on hope and dream. Don’t do it. And if that big affiliate says it’s the only way that it’ll send you traffic, they’re not worth it to you, because you might have a big, top line number, but you will not have a business afterwards. So just as a cautionary tale, because i So, actually one time when this when this affiliate was a bigger deal. I do talk to clients out of it, because we stray plugged in the numbers, I’m like, okay, he would lose X amount of dollars on every single sale, do you have any idea how long it’s gonna take you to recoup that? And they’re like, no, I’m like, well, if it takes you 30 days to recoup that, what is that going to look like for your business? And they started looking at me like, why wouldn’t they have a business? I was like, listen, I think you’re in a really bad spot. And you don’t even know if you could recover that amount. And you would need if it took you 30 days, you wouldn’t have a business, that’s probably not a good setup, that’s pretty aggressive that you have to be to reclaim that. So, I’m just telling people, always be careful with those deals. But as So, your story saying, when you get an affiliate like that, just being bold asking, getting that connection, it can change your business overnight, I’ve seen it time and time again, whether it’s a media buyer, whether it’s an email affiliate, whether it’s somebody that might be a thought leader, you know, for example, I had a client that went from zero sales to they were getting about two and a half million a month in sales and took them 60 days with getting a couple of meeting by affiliates to grab onto their offer and run with it. So, things could change in a hurry with the right collection of affiliates, which with that, I guess we should talk about how to go and build these relationships. So, kind of like, it doesn’t matter if you have the hot offer.

33:58

Or if you’re brand new. You tend to see the same barriers with people when they go to get these deals, which is imposter syndrome. I shouldn’t be talking to these people or, or sometimes they shouldn’t be talking to me, you might get the opposite where you think you’re too big of a deal to talk to anybody. I would say at the end of the day, remember that every good relationship is predicated on value first, like relationships that if both sides are trying to give the other one more value, almost like if any office fans have ever seen the episode where Dwight and Andy are in and yes, there were like a you lob, like hey, you owe me one you owe me one like that where that’s obvious a ridiculous example. That’s the way great networking and great relationship building should start if both sides are trying to provide value at all times. So, you know, I’ve been telling you right now if you want to free yourself from the anxiety of how to build these relationships, all you have to think is great. I just need to find the way to get value as soon as possible and inherently, here’s the other issue.

35:00

Now you might think your value is only in your offer. If you have a brand-new offer, it probably is not, your value is not in your offer, your offer probably sucks. But you’re like, well, how am I going to get traffic? If my offer sucks? How do I even know if it sucks if I don’t have traffic, and I need affiliates? Yeah, it’s a big chicken, the egg argument, we see a lot of people anguish over it, they get really insecure. But every single human being has some sort of value. And no human being knows everything, or has all their needs met. If those two people happen to be in the same room, they’d be the first time and I’m pretty sure the world would blow up because there’s no way that’s happening. So that means that you bring unique value to every single situation. So, the first thing you need to do is identify that in yourself, and you bring up some big ones. So oftentimes, you might not use a lot of affiliates. But you might know how to cool traffic, you might be able to drive, paid media, which is really valuable to an offer owner that doesn’t know that information. So it’s sometimes it’s something is like, you know, maybe you just tell them, Hey, I’d love to sit down and tell you go through an hour and share with you my campaigns that I do and run my paid media through to see if that’s something you could set up and do yourself, or, Hey, I’d be happy to evaluate your campaigns that your affiliates are running and see if there’s any suggestions that I can make. If you’d be willing to promote and test your art, like, you know, offer to the list. Now, you don’t necessarily frame it that way. But you start by giving value, whatever your value might be, I’m gonna tell you some of the value I’ve given before to build a relationship is something as simple as a recipe that I shared, hey, my wife had this really great recipe where it was like, free of all the things that tastes good, but actually tasted really good for dessert. And I shared it with somebody and they that endeared them and created a relationship that was valuable that next time we saw them, they brought up and said, oh, that recipe is great. And we talked more and more and now have an interest in their business, what’s going on in your life, what’s going on in your business. Some entrepreneurs’s life and business are cohesive, they’re the exact same thing. So, if I could help out their life, I’m also helping out their business. It doesn’t always look that way. But it does prove out that way. If you know how to do it.

37:07

So be I mean, the first thing to do is lead with value, give them something value, ask questions to understand what’s going on in their life, what they might need, and wait till you have the money to inject some value into their life Give it and then you have to kind of trust in the Rule of Reciprocity. If you give something So, someone, they’re going to want to give something back. They want to create balance in their life in the relationship. It’s natural. It’s human behavior. Oh, wow, that was really awesome. What can I do for you, you’re always waiting for them to ask that question.

37:37

And if they don’t ask a question, we could get there. But ultimately, you get them to ask that question. And that’s when you share what you need. But all starts with value first. So, any questions about that? I know, we could go into a lot more detail about specific things, but at a very high level. That’s So, where you start building these relationships is thinking what you could bring, not what they could give you. Yeah, no question, is there really kind of, I can just kind of point back to, to my experience.

38:04

What I find is, I find it very difficult to ask, you know what I mean? Like, it’s just very difficult to just point blank, ask hate to promote my shit, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah, it’s really the room where everyone’s asking that question to everyone’s asking that person.

38:24

Yeah. Again, like, think of it this way. Like, if, if a great affiliate is a pretty girl, again, not to sound too sexist, but I have been accused of being sexist in the past. But like, if, if a great affiliate is a cute girl in a club, you know, she’s gonna be approached by older guys, some women probably too. And, you know, get pitched on the idea of, you know, let’s have a good time. Right? You know, people trying to, you know, get her to give them their number and yada So, yada. So, in many ways, affiliates are kind of like that, especially the ones who know they got the you know, what it takes them the ones with a track record. So, they’re very selective, and they’re very sensitive with regards to when somebody’s trying to kind of penetrate their protective bubble. Yeah, in my mind I always want something from them. This makes me know that somebody’s something from them. You get away from me, right? Yeah, I can. There’s a bad vibe here, it’s like it’s a one-way conversation. What I found to work really well for me, in general, is to have the ability to, to not be desperate, or to not show meeting us for them to promote my stuff, but rather to connect with people on a personal level.

39:44

My initial approach was to literally go and connect and be super down to business. Like I remember going to the seminar with a friend of mine who’s an Israeli guru, who has been in the game far longer than me probably at this point. 30 years he lived through its Web 1.0 web 2.0 I mean; he’s seen it all. He’s done all kinds of offers, you know, casinos and payday loans and a million different things, right? He tried; he knows everything about everything. I remember going with him to Click Funnels life in Dallas. And, um, you know, obviously, ClickFunnels life is one of the biggest events of the year. It’s kind of like this point, I like to see, kind of like, Affiliate Summit East in the West, and on and on.

40:32

And I was like, just trying to network as much as I can to look for people who are into promoting stuff or affiliate marketing or, or something. And I would be like, what do you do? And, you know, what, what’s your list size? Or what, how do you drive traffic, I was like, really in your face, and really looking for JV opportunities and proposing right away, hey, we should work together, we got this offer. It’s amazing. All right. And I was like, going for the juggler. And he and he wasn’t, in fact, he was nowhere in the room.

41:05

Every now and again would catch him sort of drifting about. And I was like, hey, you tie where you’ve been. And he’s like, Yeah, took a nap. I’m still jet-lagged. And then I would see him chat with the person over here, sit down with somebody in a comfortable chair. But they’re like, you would almost never be in the room learning stuff, you would always be chatting with people. But a conversation would always be nonchalant, not about business, either will be laughing about something or complaining about something. And he wouldn’t necessarily even care what they do. Because then when we would like to sit down to grab something to eat, you know, be like, so who did you meet, and I will tell him who I met. And a lot of this stuff wasn’t necessarily super targeted. Right. So, it’s not like every person he spoke to was like a perfect JV partner for him at the time. But he taught me that I’m doing it wrong. And that I should be taking an interest in people rather than taking interest in their offers or list sizes, kind of like what you said, you know, sharing your recipe. And I learned that everybody has passions in their life, things they can talk about for hours. For example, for me, it’s football, the Premier League, Manchester United by you, you So, start a conversation with me about how we can fill a five-hour podcast. I’ve been thinking about that, right.

42:27

And then people have issues and problems. But the thing is, people don’t really like to talk about their problems. Not sure exactly why. Maybe it’s the shame of admitting your life is not perfect. Maybe it’s the fact you don’t have a solution. So, you don’t want to think about it. So, it’s procrastination. But most of the time, people are not really open to saying, you know, if I ask them, what do you need help with? Right? Most people don’t have an ask or have acid, they don’t have a voice. So instead, you take interest in them as a person, and find out what they like to do.

42:59

Where do they spend most of their time, effort and energy? Like, you know, maybe they got it, maybe their business is not their passion. You know, I meet people, they’re like, Oh, I’m super passionate about my business, and this and that, and my life purpose. Okay, that’s like 5% of people who do something. Most people, whatever business they’re doing, they’re not really super-duper passionate about there’s, there’s something else they’re passionate about. And so, once you find out, and this is a person you want to JV with, most of what you talk to them about should be about that. You should probably spend more time talking to them about their passions, because what that will do. And I don’t know if there was any science to it or not, I think what it does, it allows them to feel good feelings about you. Yeah, no, definitely. So, there is science around this. But I think that to build it in a couple of things that are really, really key. You’re totally right, you’re doing it wrong before giving a really good example. But I think it’s the way most of us think that we have to do that. We think it’s a boiler room. And that’s actually one of the reasons why you’re describing where people even will say these So, lines of, oh, my passion is my business, or they want to be very protective about what’s going on because they go into these networking, conferences, events, masterminds. It’s So, and it’s a battleground. It’s a battleground of businesses of who’s better, and who can be better and continue to win against all of these other people in this room. And every deal and every interaction is a winner and a loss. That’s where we enter into these things. And so, a problem is a weakness that somebody’s going to expose, to take advantage of in my business. And so, we get really guarded around that stuff. We also get really guarded around conversations that stay in that combative realm. So, when you come out and say, hey, what’s your list said? What’s your email? It’s like, we’re evaluating its two dogs. Stephanie, each other’s butts, right? They’re trying to figure out what they’re gonna do next. Are they gonna bite the bark or go have fun? They don’t know, but they’re in a heightened sense of awareness. What if one of those dogs sniffed a button?

45:00

Just threw a bone out, Hey, here’s a bone. And we’re like, you know, they might be confused. But over time, they’re gonna like, well, this is a lot better. And now the problems come forth, because there’s trust, we don’t feel the sense of danger, we don’t feel that somebody’s here to try and win us over. What we feel is we just feel like we’re in a great conversation. We’ve lost ourselves in our own humanity, and all of a sudden, the distrust that we have of the things that are holding us back, they just go away, we always get into trance of conversation. If you’ve ever been around somebody, you just like, I can’t believe I just told you that. It’s because they make you feel so comfortable, you just start talking. And I get it all the time with people, the number of times I’m like, I can’t believe I shared that with you. And I’m like, I can’t believe you did either. But here we are. So, for gossip because I get so many secrets from people all the time. And a lot of it is loaning people into treating them as a human. So, let’s use some examples of how to go about doing this for saying hey, theoretically, you mentioned like you even use like, there’s an affiliate manager and say she’s a very attractive girl. She’s getting all the male attention of offer on there’s other affiliates, everything that she needs. But I bet a lot of that attention is probably grinding and annoying as heck, because it’s probably a lot of guys coming up and like, oh, I hope your offers are as hot as you are, or something like that. Or the one who likes Flash how much money they have, like, really, really bad pickup line. So that was me. And that party. I knew that was a big affiliate and I wanted them. I wanted to work with them. Whatever it might be, I would probably come over and the first thing I’d say is Okay, I will share mine if you share yours first. But I need to know the dumbest pickup line that you’ve heard in the last two hours. And I’ll share the dumbest one that I have. And then you get into like getting a laugh, right getting to share something, talk about it, react in whatever way they say like fine, I put this reaction based on what they reacted to with what was the bad comment, not your personal reaction reacting to how they’re reacting. We want to seem like we’re on the same wavelength too, there’s always ways to check this through body language. I always like to do this. If you’re in a good conversation with somebody, they should start naturally mirroring your body language so that they’re engaged. So, move your body in certain ways and start mirroring theirs. And when you know, you’re both standing and doing the same things, you’re holding your drink in the same way. Pay attention, then move your drink, hold it differently and see if they follow suit. If they do, you know that you’re engaged, you’ve done a good job with that. Now, and again, what I’m thinking and the reason I would have gone about that is what is the one thing that that person didn’t want to hear from another person. Another pickup line. Another thing, the biggest irritation, the biggest wall that they’re facing right now. Right? So go and pick, pull through that it’s not always that way, though. Sometimes other people are doing different things. The Tyrian term peacocking, right. If I walk into a networking party, and I have the brightest suit on, I’m doing that for a reason. I want people to recognize the suit, I want people to talk about the suit, I did not wear this to be ignored. I pay a lot of attention to these shoes. So, if you see somebody that has very detailed shoes, shoes one thing, but a shoe that shows extra detail, or if it’s you know if it’s a sneaker like Air Force ones or something which I don’t know shit about. But I know that it matters to the people that do so I was like, hey, I know I’m not a big shoe guy. But I could tell you right now, those are shoes that you care about. You got to tell me what these are. And then from there, it told me more about it. What made you decide to tell me more about this data, all you’re doing is just getting information from them. But people love to share that information. If they’re putting it out there that’s important to them, you acknowledge it’s important. And then take the next step to find out why it’s so important to them. They’re going to remember that conversation, they’re going to remember you because you took time to look at them as a person, not a number, not an affiliate, an email, send. And once you have that and you build conversation, they’ll naturally start sharing with you things about their life, about their business, a great question you should ask isn’t what do you do? Why are you at this conference?

48:52

I was just making it a little bit more organic, a little more natural. Hey, what’s the number one thing that you were hoping you’re going to have on the flight home from here? The winner, one thing you got was an affiliate isn’t an idea, like what do you need? I’m really curious. And you ask it that way. It’s hard not to get people to answer something, and give a good idea why they came here. Sometimes it’s like, honestly, I just really love to come and see people haven’t talked to me too. It’s so great. You know, let me ask this. I’m actually looking for this here. This is where you interject it? Hey, I know you have a lot of friends here you can do that. I was looking at that. I have to be honest with you. I’m actually looking for this specific thing and you need to have an elevator pitch . For me it’d be Hey, I’m looking for any businesses that are selling online that are making seven figures and either have an affiliate program or are looking to start using affiliates for the first time. Do you know anybody that you know in your circle of friends that you’re looking to see that might fit that build that I don’t know personally? That’s a really easy thing for them to say yes to. You just spent all this time making them feel good because you had a nice, organic value-oriented conversation. You found out what they’re looking for, but hopefully if you could fit in and already give them the connection they need. Oh, you should go talk to him.

50:00

Head over there. He really likes, you know, Funko Pops. And he happens to be able to solve your problem. And now you’ve already given something made a connection, send it over. Now you could come and say, well, I know you’re looking for blah, blah, blah, I, I’m actually looking for this, if you know of anybody, just let me know, going back to what you said about E tie, hey, sometimes he’s just going really broad. These aren’t people that are his leads, or his affiliates. But you know what they are: somebody that’s going to talk to somebody else. And now they know me, they remember me. And I gave them a very specific thing to look for when that comes up. So, it triggered a conversation, because I connected with them as a human being and learned about them creating value in their life. Even though a conversation gave them something they have, they have a relational deficit. And I haven’t printed myself in their brain because they said something different, I engage with them, we have a lot of shitty conversations, the good ones really stand out. So being a good conversationalist requires you to bring value, listen, and pay attention. And if you do that, you will just be amazed how many people will send for you. How many people bring you leads that are going to be your big affiliate, that’s one of the best ways to get a big, massive affiliate and Emily lark, that’s pretty much how things started out for her, she engaged with somebody, they gave her a chance that person happened to be very well connected, and then connected her to everybody else when the offer was ready. So, it can make a huge difference in your business sometimes, not necessarily for that person being the one that sends but who they know and who they connect to you too. Yeah, I think a lot of this stuff is just being good. Like being So, a cool person to hang out with somebody who understands just somewhat a bit of social dynamics. This is really hard for business people these days, because from what I understand, most business people are not really fun, outgoing. networking, a lot of them were really just introverted, you know, numbers focused business focused, their expertise focused kind of people who find themselves talking about their expertise. Most of the time, like, if I like, the first few years in my business, I was interested in talking to people about direct response marketing.

52:12

If I went to a party, and I knew that nobody there understood direct response marketing, I would either impose that conversation upon them to impress them that I know something, which is not good.

52:22

Or I will just not bother to engage at all. So, I didn’t have any people skills at the time, I think, you know, like, just go read some classics to the How to Win Friends Influence People comes to mind. Very cool, good book that teaches you a very simple idea, in my opinion. And that is how to take interest in other people, without coming across, like you’re doing it in a way where you’re going to then try to kind of pull a lever, you know what I mean? Like how to do it in a way that people genuinely appreciate, and how to be interested in them. So, you then become interested in them. Because people do take interest in people who take interest in them. I don’t know if it’s also a sense of reciprocity, or what but, you know, like, there’s been, I think there’s been a study where they’ve done many, many years ago, where they put this guy on a plane, and he would just fly everywhere. And whoever’s been wherever would sit next to him on a plane, he would just ask them questions. Like he would spend the whole flight asking them questions about themselves. And so, after the flight, they would pull that person to the site and say, hey, do you know who you flew it to? Who Flew with like the person sitting next to you? And oftentimes, they would get an answer, like, no, I didn’t even catch their name. But they were, they were one of the most interesting people I spoke to, even though most of the time you know, that person spoke about themselves and not the guy who was asking the questions. I think people really missed that. I think like, let’s say, an average affiliate marketer who specializes in a particular form of traffic, I think for the most part, we can assume that on a day-to-day basis, their life looks pretty boring. The people in their life do not want to hear about their passion, or basically just sick and tired of hearing the same thing over and over again from them. Most people don’t know they exist, because affiliates are hiding behind the screen usually.

54:29

And it’s not like people really hold them up on a pedestal of any kind, either, right? For the most part it just feels very, like invisible and everything. So, if you meet them somewhere, if you have a call with them, or if you chat with them, and take genuine interest in them and you don’t rush it to, I think very important to mention, don’t try to close them.

54:53

You know what I mean? Like don’t try to escalate that conversation way too soon, like, passage of time is important and building relationships, there’s no relationship in your life that just happened, you know, within 30 minutes, give it some time, you know, don’t be and be okay. It’s one of the things to be okay, leaving a relationship and a conversation, both of you wanting to talk more. In fact, that’s the best time to leave. I would say, at best, a good vacation, a good movie, a good whatever, a great conversation should always leave you wanting a little bit more. So, you mentioned a time religion, if you’ve accomplished the goal of at least seeming interesting, because you actually show it’s funny to be interesting, you have to show interest. I’m not that interesting of a person. I really not like, I don’t like to live an extravagant life. But I’ve been told often I’m a very interesting person, people like, oh, that was one of most interesting conversations I have. It’s not because I am individually interested. But I sit and just let people talk. And ask questions. Now, there’s a key here that I see a lot of people make mistakes, because what you said is really, really powerful. Asking questions to understand somebody is not the same as just asking questions about them. Because then you could just interrogate somebody. Oh, yeah. Like, this is the worst conversation I’ve ever had. If you’ve ever, I don’t know, if any has been oh in these conversations, you could see that somebody read a book without understanding it. And like, I’m gonna go ask a lot of questions. Like, where are you from? Are you from?

56:20

What’s your favorite color? Would you like to? And then the thing is each question you answer, and they just follow up with another question that seemingly detached from the one before, it’s not enjoyable. That’s not a conversation. That’s what your parents do to catch you in a lie. So, your trust levels go way, way, way up. Just and this is actually something I learned from working customer support for a really long time. And as I actually got really good at getting people to, to understand people, for me, it was working retention. So, my first call center Job was a DIRECTV person calling to cancel their service. And they’d get me in. I’d like to think not. So, but I always did really well, because it was all about learning, getting new people. They’re all mad. They’re some preconceived notion. So, you’d ask questions, but you have to ask, you have to ask a question. You have to confirm and show you understood the response. And then you have to transition to your next question. That’s how you build a relationship. So, what I mean by that is, if I asked you, hey, can you tell me a little bit more? I’m really curious about the origin of your last name. Tell me more about that. When you go and respond to it, I can’t then just answer a question. Well, where is that? Why is that? What is that? Right? You can’t just follow with questions when you need to do it after it because it’s probably a long story. I’m going to take the story in, honestly, probably in segments, if it’s really long, stop and say, just so I understand this is what’s going on right now. And you’re just so showing that you’re listening, showing you’re actively understanding, putting in your own words, which one, if you put in your own words correctly, they’re gonna like, wow, they understand me. And if you ever look at like what you mentioned Trump earlier, people always say this about him, like, he feels like he’s the only one in the room when he’s talking to me. And it’s like, it’s because he does this stuff. And he doesn’t get math’s so it’s the same thing. If I feel like he understands my issues more than I understand myself, or just I feel seen and understood, I instantly like to trust that person more. They can’t do anything that bad. Because I like them, and they get me, we’re the same, right? So, when you summarize, you’re showing that we’re the same person, even if you don’t even know their experience, but I am just taking their own language and spitting it out of my mouth. In a way that sounds like I’m saying it, but they just said it. So, we’re on the same page. So super, super key, you have to summarize what you heard. Now react to it. This is the part where I see a lot of people also miss when building relationships, you need to summarize and then react and have an opinion about what ‘s crazy. I couldn’t even imagine I always like to focus on the feeling side personally. Because I think that’s relationships, a key part that people miss. And if I could increase their emotions, they’re having conversations that bring up their emotions. And I’m connecting with those emotions. It builds trust really, really fast. And as I mentioned before, there’s like, oftentimes, if people don’t talk to Kyle, I find out some really deep secrets about people’s lives that they’ve never shared at a networking event. It’s exactly the strategy I’m going for and I’m summarizing what they said, and then I appropriately connect and respond to the emotion of the situation. Oh my gosh, if that was happening to me in my life, I couldn’t imagine I would feel like I would feel this in this way. How did you deal with that? Now my next question is actually going deeper into what they’ve said. Or if it’s something technical. Oh, my gosh, that feels so blankety relationships, blank. How did you get so good at that? Now, my next question is going deeper to wherever I want to go. I’ve shown I understood, I saw I connect with them. And now I have control over whatever information I want. Next, it’s very easy to flow that way and make that work. So just so it’s weird cuz I’m like, just this is how you talk to people, right? But like to talk to people effectively, no matter what, talking to people is a missing skill these days. I agree. Yes, it is. I mean, talk to my kids about it all the time. Thanks.

1:00:00

This right this would be like Yeah, and you get short form dopamine hits that we get content fed to us and five seconds to make us feel good. First, having to work for over 30 seconds is hard. But the formula is tried and true. It’s been this way for years I tried it, I literally did it take people that would call in saying all sorts of swear words and how they hated the company. And by the end of it, they were happy. And oftentimes they even were spending more than when they started, right? It is that method that has worked time and time again. And it’s obvious you have to get better at it. Like sometimes you’re going to say things you’re trying to connect up really off. And people don’t like to be yourself. You’re much better off building relationships with who you are and not who you’re pretending to be. Because that will just always have a limit unless you’re some sociopathic liar. And we will never know until the bodies get revealed later. And we’re like, we thought he was such a good guy, you know, but let’s look for the most part, be yourself and be the cut most you and maybe the most tempered to you. And again, you might go too far sometimes, but I think you’re better off doing that than cutting out not doing anything at all then making the Netflix Docu series. I know, I know. We’re getting close on time. And the one thing I can say, Yeah, so one thing I was gonna say if anyone’s curious about some because one thing we didn’t get to deal making so this is a relationship, I have but creative deals. I’ll try and send over a podcast where we went into a kind of more creative deal making to have a good relationship. I’d be happy to put that time at this point and listen to that. But yeah, definitely build some relationships. Remember how to be human, and just summarize, respond and redirect when you’re asking those questions.

1:01:45

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