The Man Who Beat Aweber At Their Own Game

Hi. I’m Igor Kheifets and this is the list building lifestyle. The podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my bestselling book, the list building lifestyle Confessions of an email millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints, visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now it’s time to claim your list building lifestyle.

00:50

Welcome back to the list building lifestyle with your host, Igor Kheifets. Today, I’m hosting none other than my friend are brilliant AdvoCare, who is the founder of system io. It’s the world’s largest CRM, or funnel builder, anyway want to call it? That’s based in Europe. And I believe, if I’m correct, it actually has the largest European funnel builder community. Right now in the world. It’s before taking interest in the system, I didn’t realize how big they were actually how much they’ve grown. And when I discovered just how insanely cool the system is, I decided to invite a founder to see if we could pick his brain on the topics of list building, email marketing, and everything in between. So please help me welcome my good friend. Aurelien Amacker the founder of System IO. Aurelien Welcome to the show.

01:49

Hi, Igor, Thank you for having me today.

01:52

My pleasure, man. My pleasure. So tell us I mean, it’s a pretty, it’s a pretty steep goal. It’s a big, audacious, hairy goal to actually take the fight to all the big companies out there and develop your own funnel builder, CRM autoresponder. And it’s all visual. And it’s actually good, right? Which we don’t get to say that about so many of your competitors. So, tell us, where did the inspiration come from?

02:19

Yeah, so you know, I started selling online courses in 2010. So it’s been a while, you know, back in the days, it was absolutely horrible. So I was using Aweber to manage my email list, and then I was using some custom made HTML pages that a buddy marketer had given me, but I wasn’t the developer. So it was a mess, just to you know, change the, you know, the price, then I was using some weird French payment processor. I mean, it was horrible. And then some tools launch. I remember, there was LeadPages, I think it was 2012. And then there was ClickFunnels, I think it was 2014, or 15. And the thing is, there was 2014 actually click funnels. The thing is, I was never really happy with this source. So I started having the idea of building my own tool, and I can tell you something is that so many people had the same idea, right? I didn’t have like some revolutionary AI ID. Just in the French market. I know so many people who tried to build a similar tool and actually failed. But as I started, like, designing it, you know, I was like, oh, if only you could have the email marketing features, and the page building features under the same roof, it would be so much easier, you know. So that was my goal. And I found at the beginning, I had the wrong developers. But long story short, after a year, I found the right developers, and we started building the tool that was in 2017. So over the course of 2017, we actually moved my business over to the tool we were developing. We also had the ability to create your courses, you know, because before that I was using WordPress with which WishList Member was pretty hard to configure. And then you have to, you know, link them together. And it’s quite a, it’s kind of a nightmare. So I know that the theory is that you cannot do everything. And it’s actually we discussed it. When we had a call before and you told me there is no way you can do a good tool. And it’s funny because I was like, Yeah, but if you link different tools together there is no way you’re going to have a good user experience. And you told me right away you say oh yeah, it’s a nightmare, you know? So first because we have the right team of developers who are able to build an New features fast. And I can tell you something. It’s funny, because in our, like, you see, you look at the competitors, when they build a feature, they do a launch, right? When we do a new feature, we post a post in our Facebook group and you know, we move on and people are very excited, you know, we have 20,000 people in the English speaking Facebook group. So we are able to build features faster than our competitors, I’d say. And, yeah, it’s so much easier when you have just one tool. And actually, we use our own tool, I showed you our dashboard. We use our own system, the title, account to run our entire business. So sales funnels, email lists. Blogs, we have several, you know, in different languages, to sell our courses to manage our affiliate program, and to give you some numbers, because sometimes people think oh system Natalia, you know, it’s good for beginners, but then if you like she wants to build a bigger business, it’s better to use different tools. Well, our system Natalia, we do almost $500,000 in revenue per month, and we get 70,000 new leads per month. So

06:15

Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty insane. And this is actually another reason why I was really excited to bring you on. First off, you’re a founder who’s actually using his own software, to run your business. Now, that alone is a big testament to the quality of the product and how much you believe in it. Because I’ve met lots of founders, and been in the space for I think, now close to 15 years, I’ve met people with all kinds of crazy software ideas, and some did a good job, some didn’t do a good job, most actually don’t do a good job, primarily in the interface part, a lot of them do a kind of half-baked version of the software, and then go try to sell it and realize it’s the software business is a lot tougher than that it looks from the outside, you know, everybody just looks at the people who sell the software and get a big chunk of money. But you know, they don’t look at the 20 years, or the 10 years that it takes to get it to condition and then go looking for investors and capital and stuff like that. But a couple of things attracted me first, the fact that you use it. And that alone is big, because I can count the amount of founders I’ve met who use their own software, on one hand. And this is not an exaggeration for the sake of drama. This is literally how many people could remember that actually, we’re developing a piece of software, and we’re using it every single day to run their businesses. Now, the other thing is that you’re like, you’re probably one of the best list builders in the world. And I don’t say this lightly, because I know lots of people who build email lists, and I know lots of people with big email lists. But here’s, here’s something that I don’t get to see a lot. And that is people who generate as many leads as you do. And people who can send as much traffic within email as you can. Because I got to witness that last week firsthand, where one email resulted in like 600 people registering to a webinar. I mean, that’s pretty insane. And I’m like, I spent a lot of time in the webinars circle. It’s one of our strategies, you know, we do a lot of like, webinar marketing. And man, some of the biggest names you wouldn’t believe. But some of the biggest names, people who had TV appearances, people who put together big seminars, they can’t really do much with their lists, either because they’re poor list management, or maybe, I mean, I don’t believe their emails suck. I really do believe it’s for list management, which is a different topic. But you’re obviously doing so many different things, right. And it’s all centered around the software and your program that you’ve developed, which has so many cool features, which of course, we’re not going to go into detail into this episode. But I would highly urge anyone who’s interested in building funnels or doing any kind of email marketing list building to go check it out systeme.io that system with an E at the end of it. So it’s s y s t e m e.io. You can sign up for a free account to get going and you can check it out. What I really love is the interface. It’s very intuitive. Something again, I don’t get to say about lots of pieces of software. I mean, for example, there’s a great autoresponder out there, like Active Campaign. Everybody knows, like a lot of people use it. But you get in. I mean, you log in for the first time, regardless of whether you’re an advanced user or not. You get a headache. Okay, it’s really bad.

09:42

Yeah, look, Igor. Honestly, look, I’ve been following Active Campaign for years like they were bootstrapped and very successful. First time I heard about it. I’m thinking was Andrei chaperon saying, Oh, I’m moving to Active Campaign. I was 2012 and then the rest. He’s a ton of money, I think it was 2015 or 2016. It’s really a company I looked up to, and I guess I still look up to it. But, you know, we did an integration with Active Campaign a few months ago, and my developers showed me their user interface. I was like, this is yeah, exactly, just like you said, some headache, you know, you have a bazillion options, you know, it’s actually pretty low, pretty low to load, you know, the pages to do anything, it’s pretty low. And then I used the email editor, and I was like, what’s this? You know, I don’t even know what it is like, is it? I mean, I’d system with which we strive, we strive so much all the time to keep our tools simple, and it’s not easy. But I swear, like, we will make sure that, you know, every single feature we add, every single option is worth it, because it’s funny people, people think, you know, a software is better, because it has more features, more options. But when you look at Active Campaign, you know, I’d say that any user is going to use only 10% of all the features. So that means that you have 90% of the features on the user interface that are useless. But still, these are things that you have to, you know, you have to understand in the user interface, and it makes it so much more complicated. And it makes the tool and the pages heavier to load. So it’s not that easy. It’s not like, oh, we have more features. So it’s better. The thing is, with my own experience, because I’ve been selling online courses, I’ve been selling coaching programs as well for, you know, a decade, I’m ever to tell our users, you don’t need this feature. And sometimes they’re not happy about it, you know what I’m like, I’m sorry, you know, but like a moving button. It’s not gonna make any difference, like you have some basic formula that I love, it’s that the offer is more important that the marketing and the marketing is more important that the design, you know, so you have to educate people, you know, you have to agree to disagree sometimes. But yeah, I mean, Active Campaign, it’s a very successful company. But I don’t think that the tool is still great.

12:26

Yeah. And you know, somebody, as someone who used to obsess about the stuff and moving button, it has to be a yellow color, not green, or like, the arrow has to be pointing down, up and down like that, you know, I used to have just about this stuff, it honestly makes no freakin difference. What actually does make a difference in terms of like, these bells and whistles is how faster page loads, as well as how clean and easy to go through a read through the page, or the interface is like of the page. So when somebody lands on your page, what you really want is for them to read your headline and take the action that you wanted to take. So if you’re a list builder, and you’re trying to get somebody to, to opt into your list, that’s really what needs to happen. And anything that’s like a moving picture. Or sometimes people do these things where it’s going to slides from this and that slides from that end that slides from bottom and up. Like you feel it’s too distracting. It’s really too distracting, makes the page super heavy. The one thing that I’ve never liked about funnel builders is just how heavy the pages become, and how cumbersome and clunky they are. Which is not the impression that I’ve got with the system.

13:37

Yeah, absolutely. Igor. And you know what, it’s, there’s something like so. So interesting that we’ve discovered with my team recently is because so it’s funny, because when you learn when you start learning about digital marketing, you learn about split tests, you know, or AB tests, you know, and you’re like, Oh, this is so exciting. And I remember I was saying like, a tool called Visual website, optimizer VW. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Some years ago, I remember I was in an airport in Mexico, and I was setting up my, you know, my split tests and stuff. And I was excited about it. But it’s funny, because recently, we’ve been doing a lot of split testing with my team. And we found out so we split testing our homepage, and we got some huge lift, like in total, like 35%, but I’m going to tell you something, we realized that you need at least 6000 conversions on each variant to have a statistically significant result. So most people running a B test out there. You know, I had people telling me oh, yeah, I know, I need like, a moving button because I did a test and you know, it’s converting 50% more and every time I’m like, okay, so could you tell Could you give me the results like how many conversions you had, that I Yeah, sure. I had a 50% conversion. Since on one side and 70 conversions on the other side, I’m like, Yeah, but actually, this doesn’t mean anything like you need a few 1000 conversions on each side. And I can tell you right now, because we’re doing so many split tests that you actually need, over, that’s our rule, we have to wait for over 6000 conversions on each page. So that means 12,000 conversions in total, because we were testing two pages at a time. But yeah, what’d you say? It’s totally true, we, we got a big lift at the beginning, because we actually simplified our homepage, we had some screenshots, and then we have a headline, a sub headline, we removed the picture, remove the sub headline, and we got a 15 15% increase in conversions, you know.

15:48

Now that’s, that’s actually a good point, not having enough data for, for it to be a statistically significant change. That’s a big deal. Because a lot of times people, like, they’ll be like, Oh, I got an 89% lift on my opt in rate. And then as it turns out, they sent like 100 clicks to it. So it’s not really a test, right, it could have been just a lucky segment, could have been just a particular portion of the audience that you’ve advertised to. And that’s, and that’s really, really true. Now, I want to shift gears. And this conversation, I want to take us, I mean, it’s at this point, it’s no secret that I’m really in love with your tool, I really like it. And I really recommend to anyone who gets, I guess nauseous, with complicated pieces of software, who wants to have everything under one umbrella, their, you know, their content, their emails, their CRM contact information, they want better integrations, they want a faster landing pages, they should check out your stuff. Now what I want to talk about, I want to touch on some of your strategies to building your list, as well as if we have time on how you mailed lists? Because you have a strategy on that too, as well. Not actually the one that I find more to be more fascinating is your segmentation. And the approach you take with managing debt lists. That’s just crazy. Crazy. Cool. But to start, would you mind sharing a couple of lessons, maybe some of the biggest lessons that you can recall, in healthy, proper list building? Because I mean, you’re growing your list by leaps and bounds every day. So I want to, I want to learn at your feet. I want to know what you’re doing, man. Yeah. So

17:34

You know, it’s funny, because when I was using AWeber, I didn’t care at all about deliverability. I mean, I knew about it, but I really didn’t care about cleaning my list, you know, I guess I knew it wasn’t, I wasn’t, it wasn’t a good idea, you know, but I didn’t care. And it’s funny, because now that I’m on the other side, I mean, we have our own email server infrastructure, we have our own email deliverability team, we work with deliverability experts to make sure that you know, we have a good deal of deliverability. And actually, we have a very cool system in system that IO, where you actually, so your deliverability is going to depend mostly on the IPS used to send your emails, right, like IPS with good reputation, are going to be able to send your email much better than, you know, IPS with bad reputation IPS used by, you know, people doing some shady stuff spamming and stuff. So. So the thing is that auto responders have to group users together. So you want to put the good users with the good users. And you want to put the bad users with the bad users, and the cool thing systematize that we actually tell people how they’re doing. So we have three user groups, we have the, you know, the green group, it’s the good group, the good group, the yellow group, and the red group, the red group is obviously the bad one, you know, it’s means like, Stop, you know, it’s a pretty International Sign. And you get to know actually, you can go to your statistics, and you can see in which group, you’re you are, and because we want to educate people, we want people to understand what’s going on. So, if people are in the red group, that they shouldn’t be able to realize that something is wrong, you know, where as with other autoresponders people wouldn’t know this. So we want people to know, and they’re responsible and they can reach out to our customer support and we can help them to get better stats, so they move on to the other groups. So at our level, because we get so many leads, you know, we get like 2500 leads per day which is a lot of you Sweet, we won’t. And that’s a general rule, if you have to remember one thing is that you should try to keep your open rates above 20%. Right? You don’t want to keep sending emails over and over again to email addresses that are not opening your emails anymore. So that’s why we delete about 18,000 leads per week.

20:30

Wow. 18,000 leads a week here. I mean, you’re telling me you’re just putting them in the trash just like that.

20:40

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, we have. So I have a strategy where because we sell, so systematized there is a free plan, then the price, it’s like five to 10 times less expensive than our competitors. And then we have some online courses that we sell for $7 for most of them. So I’m like, if you have opted into our list, and you still haven’t purchased anything after one and a half month, chances are that you will never purchase anything. But it doesn’t mean that you know, we don’t delete the system to free accounts, it just means that I will delete them from our email list so that we don’t keep sending emails to these contacts.

21:31

Interestingly, my philosophy has always been exactly the opposite. I’ve had more than one instance of somebody’s been on my list for like a year, eight months, four years, I actually just recently saw a guy. And it was a guy who said, basically, he’s been following me on and off for 10 years. And then he finally decided to pull the trigger. So for me to, you know, to let go somebody just like that, unless they unsubscribe, of course, that’s okay. But like to just let them go just like that, if they’re opening the emails, but not buying, to me that’s just so unusual, right? Because it’s one thing to delete the people who don’t open and that I like I do within two weeks. So if you’re on my list for two weeks, don’t open a single email goodbye. Because you’re definitely putting me in a bad spot with all the email service providers. But if you’re like opening the emails, then should we really delete them? Should we really let them go?

22:30

Yeah, no, sorry, I wasn’t sorry. So I delete contacts who have not opened in the last six weeks, and who have never purchased anything. And then the contacts who have not opened in the last six weeks, and who have purchased something, I just unsubscribe them from receiving future emails, because you know, their customers, so I want to keep their contacts in our leads. But yeah, only if they’ve never purchased anything. And they have not up on any amount in the last six weeks. Of course, if someone like so, if someone that, you know, keeps opening our emails for 10 years, you know, he’s not gonna get DDT. Yeah.

23:14

Yeah, that’s because for me, that’s like, Man, I spent so much money with every lead, let’s just delete them, just like that. But yeah, like, but here’s the takeaway, I guess, for our audience members here. You want to be sending positive signals to these email service providers. So if you’ve got a list of 10,000 people, and 9000 of them never open. That’s like a bad signal, which can put you in a bad spot with your mailing IP domain, etc. And what I really appreciate about the way you guys do it, as I mean, as a system, you so first of you said, You’ve got tears and ranking. There’s the red, the yellow and the green. So if you’re a red mailer, you’re doing it wrong. Stop mailing, change your strategy. If you’re a yellow mailer, there’s some things you can do to improve that. If you’re a green mailer, then you’re like, Good, keep doing what you’re doing. And what’s interesting is that you’re actually showing this to the users like you showed it to me in the panel, like, you can see where you rank. So this is so different, because let’s take I mean, we mentioned they’ve even a couple of times a goober hates me at this point. They’ve not only banned me several times, but the blacklist, that my name is a keyword in their system. So anytime anyone mentions Igor, or Kheifets, or any of my domains, they’ll just freeze your account and politely ask you not to promote anything that has anything to do with me. So as far as they were concerned, you know, on their show, happy to bash them anytime. So even Yeah, so we’ll do extra episodes just for that. So with AWeber you know, they don’t tell you, right? They don’t tell you if you’re doing poorly. They don’t tell you if you’re doing well. They just kind of like either put you in a really bad IP don’t tell you Yeah, so you just keep paying that bill right, they’ll keep paying the bill, but you won’t deliver and they won’t tell you get response does the same thing, by the way. And at the same time, if they really don’t like you, they’ll just kick you out. So which is no better? Now what you’re doing again, it’s so different, so refreshing, and in my opinion, the right way to do it, and the way everyone should be doing it. And I really hope that there’s like a CMO or the CFO or the CEO of Infusion soft, or any other companies listening to this, you’re actually telling your users be like, Look, whatever you’re doing right now is hurting email reputation, you need to change this because, believe it or not, one of the most confusing things about email marketing, even though a lot of people are free to write the emails is not that one of the most confusing and scariest parts about email marketing is that dreaded delivery, or deliverability, where no one’s sharing any kind of information. And yes, there’s tools out there, there’s a ton of different tools out there. But it’s so easy to get lost in the data. It took me like an actual team of people, a team of people, and I’m an experienced email guy, a team of people to figure out if our domains were good, if our reputation was any good. And if the email is going to spam, there’re three other tools we need to use to figure out why it isn’t the words? Is it the IP? Is that the domain? Is it the DKM SP of global blind, or all the other acronyms? So I don’t know. Like, for me, I find it fascinating that you guys take such a different approach to

26:38

This. Yeah. So first, I want to stay to that, obviously, we do band some users some time, like, some got irresponsible guy who will import a list of contacts that he got from nowhere, you know, and is mailing them, you know, about offers, we do have, unfortunately, scammers or so you know, but we have some tools in place. And we have a team that monitors the accounts on a daily basis to spot them and block them right away. So we we do blocked some users, obviously, you know, there is no other way. But yeah, regarding letting know, the users, I mean, I understand that it’s different. But to me, it makes sense. Because like I consider that if a user is you know, is of good faith, then he’s going to be able to understand that something’s wrong, and he can reach out to our customer support team, read our help pages and improve his, you know, his stat, so he moves on to better groups, you know, which is fair, which is good. And if he’s a, you know, bad user, then he’s going to realize that, you know, he’s not at the right place, and he’s gonna leave and use another tool, which is, which is great. So I think, I don’t see an issue with that. And I think it works fine. You know, we, we’ve, we’ve had our email sending infrastructure for two years. And I mean, not only people don’t complain about deliverability, which is good, because usually, you know, it’s like, food, you know, when you make food, and nobody complains about food, and nobody talks, that means that they enjoy the food. So it’s great. But we also have some users actually, moving from other autoresponders can be mentioned, or Active Campaign and saying they have better deliverability. But then I’m like, Okay, guys, this is great. But it depends mostly on your, you know, user group that IP addresses us. And, you know, maybe you were like, in a bad group or whatever, like, because people sometimes ask, what’s your email? Deliverability? And I’m like, there is no, there is no one figure, you know, that can answer this question. But yeah, overall, it’s, it’s great. So yeah, people are happy about it.

28:58

Yeah. And before I get to that, we’re almost out of time. But I do want to squeeze in one more question that I think is really important for our audience. I do want to specify that in no way shape, or form, do we encourage for you guys to either buy, you know, CSV files full of emails, or scrape them off the internet that just go cold mailing them through the system or any other software? You don’t want to do that?

29:19

You can do cold emailing to professionals. It’s actually allowed by, you know, by the law. In Europe, it is at least, but then you have some dedicated tools for this, you know, maybe Gmail has maybe LEM list, you know, some tools dedicated to doing some cold outreach. It’s not the case with autoresponders that are more used for, you know, reaching out to individuals.

29:46

Yeah, absolutely. We’re not talking about the cold outreach, but rather, don’t go collecting email addresses and a non-opt in fashion and importing them into pieces of software that has that have great deliverability thinking that you’re going to fly Yeah, you’re not, you’re gonna get caught, you’re gonna get banned. And you don’t want to do that. So one last question I want to squeeze in. So we spoke extensively about the amount of time and effort you and your team put into email deliverability, ranking your users, and making sure that the people who do a good job continue getting delivered and the people who do a bad job get notified of that. And you know, now you basically prevent them from getting into good IP. Now, with that in mind, then, as somebody who runs an email marketing company, or should I say, an email marketing service, rather, as a part of your company? Would you mind sharing maybe a couple of criteria that we should be paying attention to, in order to increase our email delivery?

30:45

Yeah, so I know that you have a few things that you should do, you should authenticate your domain. You have some, like, I’m not, I’m going to be sincere. I don’t do this kind of specific stuff. But I know you have d k, I am you have demark, you know, some email security protocols that you should have in place, you know, so for example, at system Italia, we don’t allow you to send newsletters from a Gmail address. And I heard that some other autoresponders allow that like ConvertKit. So I asked my assistant to look into it, because the deliverability experts we work with told us it was a big no, no. And then you just cannot send newsletters. We’d like a Yahoo email address, it’s technically impossible, like the servers will, the email servers will not accept your emails, because in Yahoo domain, it’s actually set up in a way that only Yahoo email servers can send emails from a Yahoo email address. So yeah, it’s authentic. Authenticating your domain. And then it’s mostly about you, your habits. You know, of course, only sending emails to people who opt in into your lease and clean your email is trying to keep your open rate above 20%. I think it’s a good rule of thumb.

32:18

Yeah, absolutely. Of course, most people don’t ever make it to that benchmark, simply because a lot of times, they just immediately get put on a bad IP. I mean, I’ve seen it more than once. I’ve seen it with myself with many of my customers where you don’t even get to that point, because all these companies they got so fat and hungry and, and I mean, greedy, that they just automatically put new users on a bad IP. And you don’t even stand a chance even if you do set up your you know, DK, ID mark, and SPF and DKM stuff, which is something that as an advanced email marketer, I always recommend people to do

32:56

And Igor. So I have to sorry, I have to say one last thing, because I realized that your audience is, you know, really into email marketing and these buildings, and I have to let you guys know that what system that I oh, we used to have a system where you know, I mean, when you have more contacts, you pay more blah, blah, blah, and then I don’t know long story short system dial for $97 per month, you get the unlimited plan with unlimited contacts, unlimited email sent. And you know, that you will never spend more than $97 per month, even if you have 10,000 20,000 50,000 100,000 contacts in your email list. It’s just because we get late to the game. And it’s a way to have people moving over, you know, and we offer free migration, but I know that someone using Active Campaign and click funnels, who’s making you know, 20,000 Let’s hit $10,000 per month, with the list of 50,000 people, he might be able to save $1,000 by moving out $1,000 per month by moving over to our service where he will pay $97 and he will never pay over $97 And we have a team actually have a team of a team of nine people working full time migrating customers from other tools and people are very happy with the migrations you know, so you know, I just wanted to let you know guys because for us, I mean we have two email servers we have a team it doesn’t cost as much to add a customer even if he has a lot of contacts and for us we still profitable so you know, it’s totally fine for us and yeah, you guys save can save a ton of money.

34:46

There you go, guys. So if you already have a list and you’re unhappy with your current email service provider, then you should check out systeme.io that’s s y s t e m e.io because that’s the French spelling for the word system. What? I discovered it today,

35:05

Even if you’re happy, actually, and you want to save 1000 bucks a month, you can move over to our tool, you know, you don’t have to be unhappy. You just want to, I mean, who doesn’t want to make an extra 1000 bucks a month? No.

35:21

Yes, exactly. Plus, this system contains the features for, for hosting your products. If you have any information products or courses, you can also leverage the CRM system. There’s a funnel builder, that’s really, really good. Dare I say better than,

35:40

Like, the big one click funnels?

35:42

Did everyone hear that? Yeah, the big one. Yeah, but seriously, you guys should check it out. Regardless, go to systeme.io. That’s a system with an E on the end. And, as you can tell, I really take a personal touch to everything as much as I love seeing new things being developed in our industry. One of the problems that I see is that most people focus on the marketing more than they do on their product. And they ended up kind of moving away from the core principles that governed their thinking and behavior when they started, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. And what’s interesting is that the systeme.io continues growing, mostly thanks to its customers who’d become their biggest advocates and biggest affiliates, the amount of reviews they’ve got on Trustpilot is pretty insane, to be honest with you. And it’s just, it’s just a really great product that I think can enhance any online business, whether you were an established one or just getting going. So check it out, guy’s checkout systeme.io It gets my stamp of approval. So really in, we’re definitely out of time, and we’re overtime, but I really enjoyed this call and this interview. And thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me, and I’ll see you on the next. Thank you for listening to the list building lifestyle, get access to the previous episodes transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at www.listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also remember to claim your free copy of my bestselling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how I made millions with list building starting from scratch. Plus, I’ll give you $3,000 worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email, swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Go to www.igorsbook.com now to claim your free package.