The Neuroscience of Persuasive Copy with Csaba Borzási

I’m Igor Kheifets, and this is The ListBuilding Lifestyle. The podcast is for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures, travel the world and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my best selling book, The List Building Lifestyle Confessions of an Email Millionaire at www.igorsbook.com. Get the free book plus $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email swipe files and traffic blueprints, visit www.igorsbook.com for details, And now it’s time to claim your List Building

[0:53] Igor Kheifets
Welcome back to The ListBuilding Lifestyle. I’m your host, Igor Kheifets, and today I’m hosting Csaba Borzási, who works with course creators, coaches, consultants and online businesses to help them create ethical, high converting copy that’s rooted in genuine value and connection, rather than hype.

And today, we’re going to dive into some -personally for me- fascinating topics, even after doing this thing for quite a few years. We’re going to talk about what makes copy actually persuasive in today’s day and age, and why hype doesn’t really work, it kind of gets tuned out. The psychology behind lead magnets that convert like crazy.

In fact, this is Csaba’s specialty, he’s also got a great book, which you should check out, it’s called “Rapid Lead Activator”. (That’s right) It’s available on Amazon, you can Google it, you’ll find it. It’s basically a book that shows you how to bring someone into your world correctly from the get go, using your emails.

We’ll talk about what belief shifting emails are, and why they matter, why they’re really, really important. And what happens when you go all in on mastering the fundamentals, like Csaba has, so Csaba, welcome to The ListBuilding Lifestyle.

[2:15] Csaba Borzási
What an intro! I love it, Igor. And thank you for inviting me. Super happy to be here.

[2:20] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, I’ve been looking forward to hosting you, but the schedule has been in the line for a little while there, but hopefully now we’re going to get this done. And I was really excited to bring you on because of the challenge that you’ve done, and I think that that’s a good place to start.

So, you basically went ahead and did a 100 day challenge, where you broke down sales letters, like all the greats, Bencivenga, Hilbert, etc, and then you did the same thing for emails where you broke down.

And you guys can look it up on YouTube. He’s just breaking down, like sales, letters and emails, why they work, what makes them tick, and what you should learn from them. So where did that idea come from, and why did you decide to do it?

[3:10] Csaba Borzási
So, this was back in COVID, and we all had a lot of extra time during COVID because nothing was happening. And at the time, I was in Kevin Rogers real free life coaching program.

If anybody doesn’t know Kevin Rogers, he’s a top tier authority in the copywriting field. He helps a lot of beginners. And back then, I was a freelance copywriter, so I was working “done for you” for many different clients.

And one of the key things there was building authority content, right? Because that’s the thing that separates you overall. It elevates you above everybody else.

And I was thinking, “okay, what type of content should I be creating that I enjoy, genuinely enjoy doing, that I could be doing for a long time, that’s evergreen as well?”

And at the same time, I also was going through Derek Johanson’s “CopyHour” course, that’s also a relatively famous course in the world of copywriters. And it suddenly just clicked, “Aha, got it! So why not take it up a notch? Because I was already hand copying certain sales letters, not a 100 but a few dozen.

But eventually I realized that hand copying sales letters or copy, which is a lot of relatively beginners, or people who really want to master the game too, are doing, but it only gets you so far.

Eventually I realized that I started phasing out, and I thought to myself, “why not take it one step further and try to teach it back?” So, I analyze the copy, I write out, let’s say the headline, the lead, some bullets, the most important elements of the promotion, and then try to teach it back.

Then all the imposter syndrome started to come in, like, “oh, okay, Csaba, yes, you’ve been a copywriter for a few years, you had some successes, but who are you to talk about these big guys and and you’re not an authority there?”

But the biggest click happened when I realized: you don’t have to be an authority to start creating regular content, high quality content, but if you start creating high quality, regular content, that makes you perceived as an authority, and that’s what I did.

[5:21] Igor Kheifets
Oh, I love it, I absolutely love it. I think it’s a great shortcut to put yourself on the map, even though you’re relatively new in the game. I think more people ought to do that.

But I think for most people, the challenge would be to sort of get out there, like to put a spotlight on themselves. I think most people really, really struggle with that, from what I can tell.

So, you’ve done that, and you went for 100 days, what did you learn from? What was the experience like? What sort of transformation have you gone through?

[6:00] Csaba Borzási
That’s a great question, so I was doing it actually six days out of a week, because I knew that I wanted to have one day, so it’s 100 days, because I retroactively filled in the Sundays as well.

So I didn’t stop, but I still needed one day to rest, because this was like a three, three and a half hour workflow every single day, which might not sound that much, but if you’re doing it over and over and again, no matter what.

And keep in mind, at the same time, I was still building my business, I was still building my list, doing offers, I had, I mean, that JV project, together with a relatively big YouTuber in the self development niche, and we launched a product together.

At one point, I remember, I think it was 2021, February something, I held live webinars three times, three hour webinars within 24 hours, and because they were live. And I also did my daily proven sales letter breakdown challenge. So that was really, really hardcore, extreme! Looking back, I’m amazed that I was able to just talk so much, and do all those things.

But the key here was that I really made the mental shift to let go of my perfectionism, which I had trouble with years ago, and I made a rule, and the rule was I couldn’t edit the videos at all.

Because I knew that if I just allowed myself to edit, just a little bit, cut out that little part or trim it, or whatever, I knew that that would be a rabbit hole, and I would get stuck into editing more and more, which would take more and more time, which would vastly increase the chances of me failing the challenge, so anything I put out there, it was completely raw.

And let me tell you in the beginning, well, some of those videos like, there were two, three second spots in which I just blanked out. I was like, “So what I was talking about?” And then I had to find my thoughts again.

And even like this, I think they’re high quality, especially compared to a lot of other stuff that’s out there. In fact, I think nothing similar is out there, even to this moment on YouTube.

Because this is right there on YouTube for free. You can watch the entire thing. You don’t even need to opt in for this part. And after video six, seven, it just started becoming second nature, basically.

[8:37] Igor Kheifets
Right, so kind of getting rid of that perfectionism, not needing it to be perfect, not needing yourself to be perfect, and being okay with people judging you and being “Oh, look, he’s blanking out”, I get it, I totally get it.

There’s the next level to that is releasing your first offer, because your product, you never feel like your product is perfect, you never feel like it’s fully complete. And it’s the same, whether it’s a product or a webinar or anything.

And at some point, you have to just put your foot down and say, “Okay, we have to release this”. Then you kind of put out the version 1.0. And whether it’s a product or whether it’s an email, right? There’s always the same uncomfortable sort of friction that you experience as a creator.

And what I try to tell people when they feel like that and they kind of fail to launch as a result, is that there are thousands of examples throughout history of people and companies making a ridiculous amount of money and becoming extremely popular and achieving everything they wanted to achieve in life by releasing an imperfect and sometimes even bad product.

I mean, you look at Microsoft, I mean, that’s not a perfect product today, and it’s been like, 40 years. They’re still trying to make it perfect. Think about things like, I don’t know, Blackberry, well, their phones were never perfect, but at one point they were the leaders in the marketplace.

Any car manufacturing, just look at the entire French car industry, it sucks! It sucked for a long time, and yet here we are. So you can release things that aren’t perfect, that aren’t exactly ideal, and you will still, not only make a lot of money, but you’ll be okay, you’ll survive

[10:47] Csaba Borzási

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think this is even more important today, because everything is changing so fast, look at AI and what it’s doing, it’s disrupting whole industries. And I know it sounds like a buzzword “disrupting industries”, but that’s what’s happening!

Look at all the uncertainty that’s happening in the world, politics, wars, the economy, everything, so things are changing so fast. If you try to be a perfectionist, by the time you launch something, even if you’re quick, then it might not be that relevant anymore.

So the only way to really keep up and to see success, in my opinion, is to let it go and just have it increase your frequency of making offers, of sending emails to your list, and just try to do more in this regard.

And interestingly enough, what I found, I also started using AI in a bunch of workflows in my business. I’m still not using it to write my emails, but in terms of playing around with ideas and using it as kind of a muse in a way, or like a creative partner. I think it’s really good for that. But what I realized is that it triggers my perfectionism, actually, so the main value proposition in this would be it saves you a lot of time, right?

But what I realized is that while it gives me so much output, and then most of them sound pretty good, and I want to edit it myself, and then I start playing around with it, and eventually I realized that I often lose more time than if I was doing it myself. I don’t know, have you ever noticed that, too?

[12:29] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, absolutely! You got to be careful, basically. But it’s only because you’re a copywriter, so in other words, imagine you’re a chef and you’re trying to get AI to cook a meal for you, you’re going to be very picky about what it produces and how it does it.

But, I wouldn’t be as picky in other things, like, if it comes up with a meal plan, I’m going to be like, “does that have salmon in it?” “Yes”, “Okay”. That’s gonna be my criteria. So, let’s talk about emails, what do you think makes a persuasive email?

[13:18] Csaba Borzási
Well, that’s a hard question to answer, especially nowadays, because personally, for years, I thought that there’s just one way of doing it, pretty much, and that’s the way.

But nowadays, what I see when I’m working with clients, when I’m promoting my own stuff, and when talking to others, is that the game is changing so fast. There are certain principal fundamentals that are still the same. But you can have persuasive emails. You can reach the same destination in many ways.

For example, if you are the type of churn and burn company, like the Igor companies or something, or generate a lot of leads, then you can still have promotional emails that can promote something. And it works, it’s technically persuasive, for the right person, as they call it, “the grandparent customer”, ideal customer avatar.

But I’m guessing, for most people who are listening to this, they’re coaches, consultants, experts, like creators, digital creators, stuff like that, I still think that if you infuse your personality in it, and you just talk to people, they don’t feel like they’re just the name in the CRM, that is one of the best ways to use, to make your emails more persuasive.

Especially, again, now that a lot of people are starting to use AI to do their writing for them, which I’m not judging, it’s fine, I’ve also experimented with it a little bit, but, for me at least -I’m guessing there might be some people who might be able to use this perfectly- but it’s not quite there.

And I think people’s bullshit detector is also, like going up and up and up. And there are a lot of people who, once they realize that they’ve read an email written by AI, from a trusted source that they’ve been following for months or years, they mentally phase out or tap out.

[15:19] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, it’s like a violation of trust at this (Yeah) And I feel the same way anytime I read an email that sounds like AI, I almost feel it assaulted me, like, “you sent me an AI email, are you kidding me?” I act like a prima donna, who needs to read only fresh human content.

[15:37] Csaba Borzási
Yeah, because we care. It’s about the relationships.The thing that makes email marketing so powerful in our industries is you can build a good approximation of a real life relationship there.

And I have people who have been following me for years on my email list. And sometimes when I disappear, they email me, like, “hey, Csaba, are you okay? What happened to you? I stopped receiving your emails”.

So, that’s the thing that you want to go for. And if you do it with AI, people might feel betrayed, and I think that all around the world, they’re feeling so betrayed right now, betrayed by politicians, betrayed by institutions, betrayed by rules that are supposed to be working in the same way, but they’re not working like that anymore. Everything is just so malleable, right? And if they also lose this connection, this trust in you, that’s a big problem!

While the other problem is at the same time, the temptation is really big, it’s really, really big. And what I’ve noticed is that sometimes AI can make my writing even better. So it doesn’t write the stuff for me.

But sometimes I run it, I run my own writing through a few filters, and it can help me, like, make it better or point out certain inconsistencies, so I think the winning formula is “man and machine together”, but in the right way,

[17:00] Igor Kheifets
Right, so we’ll explore more, I guess in a bit. Let’s talk about lead magnets. So I know you replaced 80% of your lead magnets with a book, why did you do that?

[17:17] Csaba Borzási
I wanted to have one central idea for people who are coming into my world. And this, well, okay, the thing about lead magnets is that just like offers or seasons or whatever, sometimes they change, you have to innovate, you have to change. Sometimes your audience gets tired of the same idea.

I’ve got a shelf life, right? But when I originally created this, like a year, one year and a half ago, the rapid lead activator, it was a great idea. I think it still is, based on the metrics that I see. And I just wanted to have something that’s genuinely high quality, genuinely valuable. It’s not a two page PDF because it’s like a 100 page book, but it’s very practical at the same time.

And I wanted to also use it as a filtering mechanism for people who come in. It filters people based on, usually, whether they have an email list or not. Of course, I also get people who don’t have email lists, but generally it still attracts a lot of people who do have. Because they’re the people who need a welcome sequence, like a better welcome sequence.

And it’s kind of, like a super long form education based sales letter too. 90% content, 10% offer, let’s say, at the end. And I think that’s one of the best ways of building a relatively deep, like I can trust, style connection with new people entering your world.

[18:51] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, I think people have a way that they perceive different formats. (That’s right) If you’re giving them an article, they don’t take you seriously, but you give them the exact same information in a book, even if that book is only seven pages long, they treat you like an author. And if you’re an author, then you must be someone important.

Same thing for a webinar, which is another lead magnet that I really like to use. It’s much harder to create, I think, because you really, actually have to get on the webinar and you have to deliver. And that can be really demanding, really draining, especially for introverts, which most email marketers are, I think.

But again, if they see you, like presenting for an hour, whether they like it or not, like the idea that’s planted deep inside is that, “well, this guy must be some sort of authority, I mean, otherwise he would be pointing at this PowerPoint thing for like an hour”. So I think, when you find the format, the Lead Magnet format that works for you, and you kind of go all in on it, I think it’s really, really powerful.

The other thing I love about lead magnets is that most people think that a lead magnet is something you give away for free, but I’ve had great success with paid lead magnets, which I think bring much better, much higher quality people into your world.

Now, of course, if somebody’s only paying, let’s say, seven bucks for a lead magnet, it doesn’t mean they’re going to come in and spend thousands of dollars with you right away, but it’s certainly better than a freebie seeker who has no intent of investing anything at all. At the very least, you’re qualifying them that way, and from there, you can start escalating.

Right now, I have an incredible funnel, which I’m really, really excited about, where the lead magnet that I’m offering costs $3.99, and it’s working wonders! I’m still trying to create a better escalation letter, but it’s working wonders in terms of attracting good people.

The other really, really good lead magnet that I’ve always had, it seems like I’ve had it forever, of course, I went for the first seven years without it, but I wish I had it earlier, is a physical book. Oh, man, probably the best customers I’ve ever had came through the physical book funnel!

[21:32] Csaba Borzási
Yeah, are you talking about the free plus shipping lead magnet? (Yeah) that you have? Okay, yeah, yeah. Just promoted that at one point, and yeah, people loved it.

[21:43] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, absolutely. It got to a point where I was willing to pay CPA to affiliates just so they pushed the book. Because I knew that even if I’m going to spend, I don’t know, 30 bucks by giving away a book, and then I have to print it and I have to ship it.

So I ended up losing a lot of money per book, but the quality of the customer, the longevity of the customer, the relationship with that customer, if that person actually read the book, which is not everyone will read it, I was surprised, but not everyone reads the books they buy. (yeah) Can you believe that? (yeah) So that’s amazing, because that person really bonds with you.

And it’s still kind of fascinating to me how we can have this, like what feels like a relationship with our readers without ever knowing anyone in person. Like I was just hanging out with somebody in person a few weeks ago, and they were telling me that they feel like they know me, like they’ve known me for years, because of all the different content that they’ve consumed that I’ve published.

And I get that a lot. (yeah) The first time I got it was at an event in Manchester, a number of years ago. I was at the urinal, and there was another guy, his name was Jack. I don’t know if he’s still doing marketing or whatnot, but he was a younger guy, really skinny too.

And he was like, “your Igor?” turning to me, it’s like, “you’re Igor!” I was like, “Yeah, I am, nice to meet you”. It’s like, “I’m not gonna shake your hand, but nice to meet you”. Like, “yeah, yeah, I feel like I’ve known you for so long because I’ve seen all your ads, and I’ve watched your stuff.

So, this sort of bond is something you can only create by having them take your stuff seriously, and usually that means to release it in a format that they find valuable.

[23:45] Csaba Borzási
I 100% agree. And funny thing, when I published my book on Amazon a few months ago and I posted it on Instagram, a lot of my friends, a lot of people, “Oh, my God, you have a book, you’re an author, wow, wow, wow!”

And I said, Well, yeah, but it’s nothing major, it’s a short book. I wrote it in five days, four days, or something like that, because I knew the ideas already and when I wanted to put in it, and I have 20x more content when people subscribe to my email list at least, right?

So, this is just a very, very top, top, top end of the funnel, but still, in people’s eyes, “now, I’m an author”. It doesn’t matter that I have. Okay, the YouTube channel also helps, that I have 250 videos there, or something like that, that helps. But still, the book, it’s way up there.

[24:37] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, there’s a perception shift, absolutely. Like, I was chatting with somebody on the phone, like, I don’t know, maybe a month ago, and when that person discovered I was an author, the tone changed. All of a sudden, as if I had an aura or something, they’re like, “Oh, really, I’ve been dreaming of publishing a book for years” it’s like, “but you probably have to accomplish something before you do it”.

And I’m thinking to myself, I think it’s the exact opposite. You really don’t have to accomplish anything. You just have to publish a book about something, and all of a sudden you’re an expert. (yes, yes)

Obviously there’s the exception to the rule, if you’re Elon Musk and you’ve achieved a lot, you can have someone write a book about you, but let’s face it, that’s less than 0.01% of people on this planet. Most people who publish books, they publish them without having achieved anything, and all of a sudden they become an artist.

[25:40] Csaba Borzási
Yeah, and that’s totally fine, and that’s what I experienced with my YouTube challenge too. Well, who am I to publish these videos, talking about these greats, these titans of direct response, right? But as I started doing them and others weren’t doing them, suddenly I was the authority on them, even though I was the same person.

And it’s the same with books. But what I also see is that everybody knows that a book is a good authority building tool, and I have a few friends, like they’ve been wanting to write that first book for two years or one year: “What are you doing?” “Oh, I’m writing a book”. “What are you doing?” “Oh, I’m writing a book”. It doesn’t work like that, it shouldn’t, like it’s not the right way of doing it.

Put out something messy, you get a lot of feedback on it, and then you create version two. And I’m a big proponent of bottom up, like having a bottom up approach instead of a top down approach. You decide on your plan, you do it, and then you realize that it’s completely out of touch with your market, and nobody wants it. It happens all the time, even still.

[26:41] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, you can even take up a notch, and you can sell a product without creating it. (Oh, yeah) So, if the launch is successful, you’re like, “Okay, we’re gonna create it. We’re gonna make some money. We’re gonna create it”. And if it’s not successful, be like, “Okay, well, here’s the three people who bought this, here’s your money back” (exactly) When I gotta do it.

[27:00] Csaba Borzási
Actually, I think, I mean, join those types of seed launches much more than regular lunches or promotions, because it has a different energy to it; it’s like “hey, I’m going on this journey, I have this idea, who wants to join me?” And other people also have a different energy to it.

[27:20] Igor Kheifets
Yeah, I remember, I think Mike Filsaime and Andy Jenkins released something called “Video Boss” at one point, and then launch day, you log in, and the whole members area is like “coming soon”. Like everything in the member areas is “coming soon”.

Naturally, some people weren’t happy about it, but that just shows that you don’t have to have the product ready to sell it. And the best way to know whether or not it’s gonna sell is to actually go and sell it. You can’t gamble on it. (Yeah)

And if you spend three months building the product, and then you go sell it, and it doesn’t sell, now, that sucks. (Yeah) So, that’s why I’ve never liked the idea of, let’s say, Amazon, or whatever, those physical product businesses, because you can gamble, a lot of money and a lot of time, (oh yeah) and it just won’t sell.

[28:08] Csaba Borzási
Yeah. And I think the same concept is true for lead magnets as well and everywhere, like you can put out an idea, and see whether it resonates. My book, for example, never started out as a book, it was first just a simple, like checklist and cheat sheet, that’s it.

Then, once I realized, and I was always sending like, conversation, I started emails to my email list, “hey, if I created this, the Joel early style question, if I created this and it gave you this, this, this, would you take me up on that offer?” “Yes”, okay, I created version number one, then I got some feedback on it.

Then I said, Okay, let’s expand it to a template pack. Let’s see whether people want it. Yes, they want it. Let’s try running some Facebook ads to it, just to see the click through rates, yes, people want it. And then I expanded it to a book. And that’s why it only took me four days, because then I could repurpose some content that I already had, I already had the ideas.

And what I realized is that people, they don’t buy into your lead magnet, they buy into the big idea of your lead magnet. And it doesn’t matter for 80%, 90% of people, it doesn’t matter actually what’s in the lead magnet itself.

Because a lot of my clients, for example, when I’m working with them, they get stuck creating, they say, “Well, I can’t launch my lead magnet because it’s not a 30 page PDF yet, and I don’t know what to put on page 28”. And I’m like, “Are you kidding me? It doesn’t matter, just put it out there”.

80% of people will just click on it, just to buy into the promise of the lead magnet itself, they’re not going to do anything with it anyway, and that’s fine. And it’s the same thing with books, that’s why they buy them, and they don’t read them with courses, and like pre-selling courses as well, they buy into the idea, then you can help them decide what they want to do with it.

[29:57] Igor Kheifets
I really do like to pre-sold the courses, especially if you can build a pre-launch list out of your existing list, and you can say, “well, I’m gonna release this offer or this program, like on such and such date, if you want to get notified ahead of time, sign up on this list or click on this link, and I’ll tag you”.

And I remember, I built a pre-launch list of, I don’t know, maybe a thousand people, and I launched a $97 a month offer. I ended up making $100,000 in the following 72 hours of the launch, most of which came from those people.

Like, they just raised their hand and they’d be like, “Yeah, I’m in, I’m in, tell me whenever it’s released”. So it’s really, really powerful. You talk about something called “Belief Shifting Emails”, what are “Belief Shifting Emails”?

[30:52] Csaba Borzási
Belief Shifting as a concept, this is one of the key concepts that I realized during the 100 day, proven sales letter, breakdown challenge. And this just shows how they’re all connected, like the things I learned from psychology, the deeper principle fundamentals of human persuasion, they apply to sales letters, they apply to emails, webinars, you name it, books, whatever.

So, when it comes to belief shifting in general, what I realized is that all the grades Gary Bencivenga, Gary Halbert, Eugene Schwartz, Claude Hopkins, Joe Sugarman, you name it, they didn’t just sell stuff, usually, they tapped into the already existing beliefs, and often false beliefs, of the target audience, of the ideal client avatar, let’s call it that, because that’s even better than the target audience.

And they made a case to shift those beliefs into, so it’s like Inception, right? I think most people have seen that movie. (I literally watched it last night) Okay, perfect. So for me, it was a few years ago, so I’m not that sharp when it comes to recalls.

But it’s like, you go into someone’s dream or thinking process and you identify what’s on their mind already, what’s the conversation that’s already happening in their mind, and not just the conversation, but what are their true beliefs, because that’s how people make decisions, oftentimes, based on their beliefs. Just look at religion, politics, whatever.

And you make an emotional and intellectual effort at the same time to shift those beliefs into a newer thing that helps you and that helps them, so this is the principal concept behind it.

When it comes to emails, how I implement it is, for example, when you give people a welcome sequence, and my unique mechanism for that, it’s called “The Imprinting Sequence”, because the whole aim there is to imprint yourself, just like a little duckling, when it’s sees its mother or something.

Imprint yourself onto someone who just joins you and start that, let’s say, two, three week process, even, of building, you know, like a trust, gently identifying and bringing up their beliefs in a way that is resonant with how they would actually talk about their beliefs. And then show why it’s worth shifting those beliefs a little bit.

So, I know that this might sound a little complicated, and I’m still optimizing this system, but if you are a big fan of Dan Kennedy, for example, Dan Kennedy also talks about a lot about this, or Todd Brown also talks a lot about this, but Dan Kennedy calls it “The Sequence of Beliefs”. And I believe he has like, nine of these, the chain of beliefs that you have to go people through in order to convert them.

[33:55] Igor Kheifets
Right, are these universal for everyone?

[34:00] Csaba Borzási
Pretty much, yes, the contents are different, but the whole structure itself is pretty universal for everyone. And then I actually, at that time, when I was doing the sales letter breakdown challenge, I was listening to a lot of Andrew Huberman, actually, I don’t know if you’re for. (Yeah)

So, he’s a neurobiologist and optimal professor of ophthalmology, and he does all sorts of stuff, basically, but, yeah, I mean, at this point they’re always talking about all sorts of things to just expand their audience even more.

But what I realized then is that when you experience belief shifting in people, there’s also a neurological concept to it, I started calling it “neuroplastic belief shifting”, because it actually rewires your brain.

So, usually you have three different neurotransmitters or hormones that are triggered or that you can, in a way, manipulate, in a good way, with these belief shifting things. And that’s how you transform people, so that they actually look at your thing in a whole different way.

And these are Epinephrine, first of all, which is also called Adrenaline, Acetylcholine and Dopamine. So once you -Igor, let me know if this is getting too advanced or too abstract for this conversation- (Probably already is) Okay, okay, no problem, let me simplify it.

The idea here is that I realized that the old school copywriters, they help people get alert by giving them headlines that really made their blood boil in some cases, like John Cotton would say.

And once they were alert, they gave them engaging stories and made the copy easy to read and had a lot of repetition, which triggered a lot of Acetylcholine. And then, they also made it enjoyable, they made them feel good about the whole thing, like using future pacing, which then triggered Dopamine as well.

And the whole combination of this was neuroplastic belief shifting. And I’m sorry for the long rant regarding this, you can cut it out later, if you want. I’m just a big nerd when it comes to this.

[36:39] Igor Kheifets
Okay, so an example would help, though.

[36:43] Csaba Borzási
Yes, so let me give you an example that I can, so let’s say, if you have a funnel, like an email funnel, lead generation funnel, in order to stimulate Epinephrine, or Adrenaline, a little bit, you come up with a big idea for your lead magnet that teases a new solution and sounds different and superior compared to other things they’ve seen before. In my case, let’s say the rapid lead activator book.

Then people go on the landing page or opt-in page, and they see a headline that, again, it just gets them more and more excited. And then the bullets on the page build more desire, so that they say, “Yes, I want to click this”.

So now, they are in a more alert state, they are more interested. But that doesn’t last so long. So now it’s really important that your follow up emails do a great job of going deeper and building that relationship more and more.

So, let’s say in the first few emails, you share a few stories that trigger vivid mental pictures: how you travel to this place or that place, or more lifestyle oriented emails, you include specific details, you humanize yourself.

Justin Goff was really good at this, for example, when he was still sending emails, he included those little images at the end of his emails, just holding up a piece of paper and writing something on it. That was a really good way of doing this.

And then, you tap into the already existing problems and desires that people have, because if they downloaded your lead magnet, it means that they are definitely interested in that general topic, so why not go deeper, right? So, this gets them even more focused, and this fulfills the job of them paying more attention to your stuff compared to other stuff.

And then, as you move through the funnel, let’s say a week has passed, two weeks, three weeks, you introduce more offers, you try to identify the people who are higher quality, who are the hot leads. You generate Dopamine in them.

You generate a lot of Dopamine by using repetition, by giving them more offers, by making your whole style easy to read, enjoyable and relevant, using even more engaging stories and just becoming a regular, let’s say, “household name” in their inbox.

[39:26] Igor Kheifets
Okay, still, though, let’s do a more specific example. So you broke down lots of great copies, anything that comes to mind that does a good job of this?

[39:40] Csaba Borzási
I think Gary Halbert was really, really good at this, although this more complicated version applies to emails specifically, so a multi email, two, three week campaign. You can also do a shorter version of this, although it’s not going to be that super effective.

Let’s say the famous, “when I sit down at the piano and I started to play”, are you familiar with that sales letter? (Yeah). So, let me pull it up because I can just quote it off the top of my head.

So, this is actually a short one, so it’s kind of like a landing page, and I can give you the link here, as well. So this one, the last one, “They Laughed When I Sat Down At the Piano, but when I started to play” So, this is a famous, famous advertisement. It generated an untold amount of money.

And what this does, in terms of belief shifting is the whole headline is about tapping into the already existing frustration that people feel when they feel like they’re being looked down upon. It’s like, who are you?

And keep in mind, this was in like the 30s, in which social structures were much more rigid. So, it starts in the middle of the action, it twists the knife, and it taps into the already existing belief and emotion of looking down on people.

So, when people see this headline, they immediately get aroused. They get that rush of Epinephrine. And then the lead itself, the ad and the lead itself, is a story that people can definitely identify with.

People who are in the right ideal client avatar for this. There’s a big cliffhanger there, as well, some proof elements. And then, they give you the offers. And the whole offer is about, “fuck you! I did it, you haters”, that’s the emotion that we’re trying to stimulate there.

So, it’s a very short example, and I don’t know if we can include this in the show notes for people to check out. And this one also has my notes and comments marked in the PDF. This is just one of the ads that I broke down, but I think this is a good example of this belief shifting in action

[42:22] Igor Kheifets
So it taps into the belief of wanting to prove your haters wrong.

[42:22] Csaba Borzási
Yes, and feeling inferior, and feeling like you’re not worth it, you’re not good enough.

[42:35] Igor Kheifets
Right. (Yeah) okay, yeah, that does make a lot more sense. Cool. So, before we wrap up, I want to do a segment that we have, it’s called “The Rapid Fire Questions”, where I just throw some questions at you, and your job is to answer them really fast. Like, (okay) one statement, one sentence, so we can go through a lot. So, what’s one copywriting rule you think is total nonsense?

[43:10] Csaba Borzási
I know it was supposed to be a quick answer, but suddenly nothing comes to mind, because I try not to use nonsense rules. Well, hand copying sales letters too much.

I get beginners always asking me, “Hey, Csaba, I’m hand copying sales letters, I’ve been doing it for three months, and I don’t have a client yet”. And I’m like, “Well, you shouldn’t be doing that, you should be reaching out to clients”.

[43:38] Igor Kheifets
Okay, first copywriting book that actually changed how you write?

[43:43] Csaba Borzási
“Breakthrough Advertising” by Eugene Schwartz. It’s still the best

[43:47] Igor Kheifets
Anon business book that changed how you think or live?

[43:51] Csaba Borzási
It’s a relationship book, “Too good to leave, too bad to stay”.

[43:58] Igor Kheifets
Okay, “Too good to leave, too bad to stay”, nice.

[44:01] Csaba Borzási
Or it’s the inverse, “Too Bad to Leave, Too Good to Stay”, something like that.

[44:05] Igor Kheifets
Okay, what’s it about?

[44:32] Csaba Borzási
It’s about, it’s a very, very practical, helpful, 26 part checklist that you can go through in like four, six or five hours to figure out whether you should stay in a bad relationship that you’re not happy in, or you should leave that relationship.

[44:24] Igor Kheifets
All right. What’s a movie or TV show that secretly taught you something about persuasion?

[44:32] Csaba Borzási
“Mad Men”, probably.

[44:35] Igor Kheifets
Okay,favorite headline you’ve ever written?

[44:38] Csaba Borzási
Probably the sales letter for one of my biggest courses called “Breakthrough Conversions Academy”. And the main headline was, it changes everything, and it was a quote from Brian Kurtz, actually.

[44:58] Igor Kheifets
What’s the weirdest product or niche you’ve ever written for?

[45:01] Csaba Borzási
Can I use non PG words? (Yeah) I already did, yeah, penis extenders and cock rings. Because my first client ever, when I started out as a freelance copywriter, was a sex shop.

[45:15] Igor Kheifets
Badass! Okay. I don’t hear too many copywriters mention that on podcasts, I think they should.

[45:22] Csaba Borzási
Well, I like to be real.

[45:24] Igor Kheifets
Favorite psychological trigger to use on copy without being manipulative?

[45:30] Csaba Borzási
Proof? Like social proof!

[45:34] Igor Kheifets
Okay, what piece of advice sounds smart when you heard it, but backfired when you followed it?

[45:41] Csaba Borzási
Again, a relationship theme thing, people not understanding the dynamics of potentially abusive relationships, and saying that, “Oh, you should just try to avoid fights, and you should just try to comply more, and you should try to just be a good person and do that”.

[46:02] Igor Kheifets
Most embarrassing mistake you made early in your career?

[46:06] Csaba Borzási
When I was working on Upwork, when I got started, I had a client, he gave me two VSL projects, long form VSL projects, and the first one went well, and because of that, I had, no contract, no nothing, at all for the second one, and I agreed for him to pay me at the very end.

We did 10 revisions, 10 full revisions, I agreed to that unfortunately, and yet, at the end, he still didn’t pay me, so I realized, okay, never, ever, ever, ever do this again.

[46:38] Igor Kheifets
What’s something about you that would surprise most people listening?

[46:44] Csaba Borzási
That I have a really well developed quotes feminine side, because I have a degree in psychology as well, and I’ve been doing self development for 15 years.

[46:54] Igor Kheifets
Well, that’s hardly surprising. (Yeah? Okay) I mean, I’m not sure what that means when you talk about the feminine side. But it’s clear that you have some kind of thing going on with psychology. Okay, fine. So no weird cock ring stories?

[47:12] Csaba Borzási
That I did salsa, for example.

[47:13] Igor Kheifets
Okay, that’s more like it. Are you good?

[47:16] Csaba Borzási
Girls tell me I’m good, yeah, so!

[47:19] Igor Kheifets
Oh! Okay, social proof. Are they tense? I’m just kidding, I’m just kidding. We’re not ranking women here, okay. So, I know you got a lot that you give away, like you got so much stuff you give people just for free.

Can you mention maybe one or two top resources that you think people should check out, besides your book, because already, as I said in the beginning, you guys should check out the book. It’s called “Rapid Lead Activator”, it’s available on Amazon, but it’s also available, I believe, on your website.

[47:55] Csaba Borzási
Yeah. So if you go to “Game of Conversions”, like “Game of Thrones”, but gameofconversions.com/rla R L A, Rapid Lead Activator, then you can get the book for free currently.

And when you do, you also get a custom GPT with it, that’s trained specifically on this format, on this system, and it can help you create a good enough first version of a five part welcome sequence or follow up sequence, using this style in just a few minutes, you just go through a few steps. I really tried to make this as user friendly as possible, so I think you’re definitely going to love it. So, just go to gameofconversions.com/rla to get that.

Apart from that, the playlist, the Sales Lette Breakdown Playlist, it’s on YouTube. You don’t even have to opt in for that, if you don’t want to. You’re gonna find the link in the show notes. I just pasted it here in the chat as well. So you’re gonna find, actually, more than 100 videos at this point there, so you can pick whichever you like most.

There’s also a playlist of breaking down emails from other authorities in the copywriting space, although that’s not finished yet, so that’s number two. And if you want me to also mention one more thing, then I have something called “The Secret Copy Recipe”, which is the five biggest insights I’ve learned.

Because not everybody has time or willingness to watch the 100 videos, everybody wants the shortcut. So this is the shortcut to it, and if you get this, then I think you’re going to enjoy it, because it includes multiple versions to what I consider the ultimate persuasive message template as well.

So, if you want to write a sales letter, a sales email, a YouTube ad, a Facebook ad, this will give you the perfect formula, in my opinion, based on all the things that I learned from this

[49:55] Igor Kheifets
All right, and what is your YouTube handle?

[49:58] Csaba Borzási
It’s Game of Conversions.

[50:00] Igor Kheifets
Game of conversion. So guys, you can go and check out The Rapid Lead Activator at gameofconversions.com/rla, and you should check out Game of Conversions on YouTube. Go and check out those playlists, you’re gonna enjoy them, like you genuinely start understanding why some copy conversion, why some copy doesn’t, even though they both look kind of the same. It’s really, truly cool.

So, Csaba, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. Really appreciate it, and until next time we chat, have a good ball.

[50:40] Csaba Borzási
It was my pleasure. Thank you.

[50:45]
Thank you for listening to The ListBuilding Lifestyle, get access to the previous episodes, transcript of today’s show, as well as other exclusive content at www.listbuildinglifestyleshow.com. Also remember to claim your free copy of my best selling book at www.igorsbook.com. It explains how I made millions with list buildings starting from scratch, plus I’ll give you $3,000 worth of free bonuses, including my best landing page templates, email swipe files and traffic blueprints. Go to www.igorsbook.com, now to claim your free package!