Inside the $100M Email Machine with Chris Orzechowski

[Igor Kheifets] 

[0:06 – 1:42]

I’m Igor Kheifets, and this is The List Building Lifestyle, the podcast for anyone who wants to build a wildly profitable email list working from home. If you’d like to make six figures, travel the world, and help people improve their lives in the process, this podcast is for you. I also invite you to claim a free copy of my best-selling book, The List Building Lifestyle Confessions of an Email Millionaire, at igorsbook.com.

Get the free book plus a $3,000 bonus package that includes my best capture page templates, email swipe files, and traffic blueprints. Visit www.igorsbook.com for details. And now, it’s time to claim your List Building Lifestyle.

Welcome back to The List Building Lifestyle. I’m your host, Igor Kheifets. And today, I’m hosting Chris Orzechowski.

That’s a mouthful. It’s even worth my last name. But Chris is actually one of the most sought-after email guys in the game right now.

And I wanted to get him on the show to talk about the email landscape, AI, and everything in between. He’s the author of Make It Rain, a book where he shares his philosophy on selling, promoting stuff using email, which he’d done pretty well because he sold over $100 million worth of product using email. He’s big in e-commerce, and he’s been helping build what he calls 100-year brands in the e-commerce space.

So, Chris, finally, welcome to The List Building Lifestyle.

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[1:43 – 1:45]

Thanks so much for having me, Igor. Excited to be here.

[Igor Kheifets]

 [1:46 – 1:51]

So, what does one learn from selling $100 million worth of stuff using email?

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[1:52 – 4:10]

A lot. You know, it’s a good question. I mean, I’ve learned a lot. 

I think at the end of the day, though, it just comes down to fundamentals and execution. And there’s a lot of sexy tactics out there, and everything kind of works. You know what I mean? 

But I think that there is a great opportunity in just going super deep into the medium of email. Like, I remember years ago, I thought that email, I was like, I don’t know if I want to talk about it anymore. Like, I kind of said everything I want to say, and it’s not really that deep.

But it was almost like a little bit of Dunning-Kruger where, like, I kept on pushing and pushing, and I was like, actually, there’s so much more out here. Email is fundamentally simple, right? It’s like, okay, you have a list, you send emails to people and, and you know, you make money, and that’s great.

But there are a lot of levels to it. And one of the things I’ve been experimenting with is just, like, deeper segmentation and personalization. And, you know, that’s where you’re just essentially marketing, you know, different products and offers and sequences to different pockets within the individual list.

And it’s crazy what can happen when you start doing those kinds of things. But for me, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, can you get people onto an email list? Can you send them stuff that they like reading?

And then can you essentially dangle carrots and, you know, harp on pain points until they buy a product that’s going to help them solve a problem and help make their life better? And if you nail those things, I mean, you know, there’s a lot of advanced tactics. But as long as you nail those core fundamentals, it’s pretty easy, you know.

But people don’t like the fundamentals. They like all the sexy stuff, and they like AI this and this crazy software and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like there’s a place for all of those things.

But at the end of the day, it’s just, you know, I write emails every single day. I’ve been writing emails every single day for over a decade now. I’ve written, I’ve stopped counting, but it’s probably over 15,000 emails in my life.

And it’s just like I was on a podcast the other day, and I was like, it’s 3,000 words a day every single day. Like that’s the diet. Like that’s what you do every single day if you want to get good.

 And people say, wow, that’s a lot. Or, you know, I don’t know if I could do that. It’s like, that’s what it takes.

 You know, like if you just can continuously write and write and write and write and write, like you will get better. You will make more money. I mean, how could you not?

 You know what I mean?

[Igor Kheifets]

 [4:11 – 4:38]

Well, I don’t know. Chad, your PT does seem to be getting better at writing. And I’m sure it was a whole lot.

3,000 words a day. That’s about three hours’ worth of writing, I guess, for anyone who actually sits down to write. 40 minutes of writing, I think, is about 1,000 words if you have your outline done ahead of time.

Do you ever get writer’s block? Do you ever just sit there and stare at a page?

[Chris Orzechowski]

 [4:40 – 7:20]

All the time. All the time. Yeah, you know, maybe every other day.

Like it’s one of those things where like you’re going to get some writer’s block. But what I found is that writer’s block comes from just in the context of email or writing an ad. If you get writer’s block, it’s because of a few reasons.

It’s that you don’t know what you want to say. You don’t know what you want to sell. Or you don’t know who you’re talking to, right?

So it’s like usually those three things. If you have those three things in your head, it’s very hard to get writer’s block. A lot of times, I’ll wake up, and I’ll be like, what should I sell today?

And like whatever that happens, I’m like, OK, this is going to be a rough one, right? But if I know, like, OK, I have this launch coming up, the words just flow. And it sounds like a lot, like 3,000 words a day.

 And that’s an average. Like some days are only 1,000. Some days are 5,000, right?

Like I’m working on my print newsletter. Those things are usually 5,000 to 7,000 words in every single issue, right? If I’m doing a launch, it might even be more because I’m writing two or three emails a day.

 And then I’m writing other assets and scripts and other posts and things like that. So, but again, like if that’s all you have to do that day, that’s not too bad, right? Like you wake up, you write an email, you make some sales.

 Like, what else do you have to do that day? Sure, you want to do some stuff to grow your list, maybe some new product development. Maybe you can talk with some affiliates, or if you want to get set up on a podcast or do a guest post to grow your list.

 But like really, what I’ve done, and it’s probably very similar to what you’ve done, is like we both oriented our businesses to where it’s like the number one goal is to get email subscribers and then sell solutions to the subscribers’ problems, right? So, like you have two things to worry about every day. It’s writing emails or sending emails or making sure emails are going out via automation or whatever, and then it’s getting more people to sell to.

And everyone likes to overcomplicate online business. There are a million different strategies. There are always these different platforms.

And listen, everything works. I’ve seen everything work. And I’m sure you have as well.

Like, I’ve been around this game for a while. Everything can work. But at the end of the day, like email is where the leverage is, right?

 Email is what you control. Like, I’m not like big on Twitter, but I have like 12,700 followers, give or take, right? Not a huge audience by any means, but like people hear that.

 I’m like, oh man, it’s like you just post something and like you get all this reach. I’m like, not really. Like the algorithm, it’s like two months, it’s awesome.

And the next two months, it’s terrible, and it’s very inconsistent. And there’s no, it’s like, it’s up, it’s down. Like, right now we’re in a really good phase.

 The two months before this were horrible. But with email, I’m not affected by an algorithm. I just send, right?

It’s just the quality of the list, the quality of the subscribers I’m getting. As long as I’m getting good people and I’m writing good stuff, they’re going to read, they’re going to open, they’re going to buy, and they’re going to continue. 

[Igor Kheifets] 

[7:20 – 11:05]

Yeah, I agree with you. You know, if it comes to choosing 50,000 Instagram followers and 5,000 email list, I’m definitely going to go with even 500 email list. I’m going to go for the email list because I’ve actually lived it one time, just on a dare.

I was launching a really kind of like a side project. Honestly, I didn’t even know if it’s going to work. It was a product about voice.

It was a product basically about how to command more authority with your audience by working on the quality, tempo, you know, the pitch of your voice, right? And I partnered up with this guy. His name is Baron Cruz.

 He posted lots and lots of social dynamics videos on YouTube. And he’s got this really deep, not Morgan Freeman kind of voice, but even deeper kind of voice. And I was really like impressed, and I came to him, and I said, look, I have a problem.

I’ve got a high-pitched voice. I, you know, I’m really struggling. And so he did maybe two or three coaching calls with me.

And the quality of my pitch, the quality of my tempo, my speed, my pauses, my intervals, everything improved. And the big secret, by the way, was to just record myself and listen to how I sound, you know. And, you know, it was nails on a chalkboard, but it really helped, you know, just like anything, I guess, you measure your track, and you improve things.

So anyway, I had to record this product, and then I pushed it out for 200 bucks. And on a dare, I said, okay, here’s a list of a thousand people, a thousand people subscribed to my list who raised their hand and said they might be interested in something like that, versus 10,000 people who followed me on Facebook. And these are not just randoms.

These are like people who looked me up, people who proactively searched me out on Facebook, because that’s the only social media profile that I’ve had where people could contact me. It was still open. Right now, I just shut everything social.

You can’t really, you know, go and become my Facebook friend anymore. And I don’t even go there anymore. So when I launched it, I ended up making about 100 sales, almost 100 sales in 72 hours.

Guess how many came from email? Yeah, 98, 98 sales came from email. So even though the social media following was 10 times greater, it produced like a trickle.

So I mean, from that point forward, I stopped even trying. Sure, social media can work. Like you said, anything can work.

I think the caveat is that anything can work if it’s the only thing you do. Like if from now on and for the next 10 years, you’re committed to Instagram as the only way. And you channel everything through Instagram.

And the only way people can reach you is through Instagram. And fine, yeah, it’s gonna work because it’s the only thing you do. Fine.

But you also, what you said is correct. And the fact that email has so much leverage, nothing even comes close. Like, I just haven’t seen anything that comes close to the sort of leverage you get and the opportunity to work smart and not hard as email does, especially when you combine it with other, not tactics, but rather strategies, such as webinars, product launches, like it just multiplies itself.

[Chris Orzechowski]

[11:09 – 14:21]

Yeah, I think it like, it kind of serves as a filter to like, your best people, the people who are going to become customers, the longtime readers, the fans, like, they know why they’re there. Like, like, it’s kind of social, they have all these different options. But if they stay on your list, like they’re staying there for a reason.

Right. And with social, it’s like, Oh, maybe I’ll follow this person, maybe I’ll unfollow them, they’ll follow you again, and blah, blah, blah. And it’s very, like, flaky, it can be, you know.

And it’s interesting, too, just to think about, like, the methods that you use to grow your list. And like, people talk about list quality. And like, why does email work so well?

It’s like, well, I’ve worked with people who like, they built their audiences, their email list, you know, through organic social. And like, sometimes they have a lot of buyers there. And sometimes they don’t.

And like, the thing is with social, and again, I’m not against social, like I still do stuff on social media, because I do stuff everywhere. Because, you know, that’s the stage my business is at. But like, I would much rather use strategies to build my list that are going to get buyers.

And like, well, how do you get buyers? It could be through affiliates, it could be through webinars, and things like you mentioned, product launches. Those are great mechanisms, because the whole reason you’re doing it is to sell a program.

So like, not everyone who goes through the funnel, through an affiliate, or through whatever, is going to become a customer. But like, you’re creating customers through that process. And then if they buy from you once, there’s a higher likelihood of buying from you again.

But even things like ads, like, you know, when people talk about social media, like, yeah, I use social media all the time, I run ads. Like, that’s what I do. Because I use this thing called a pixel, which finds the buyers.

Like, you will tell Facebook or Instagram or whoever, like, hey, don’t show it to all the people who like to click on things. Don’t show it to the people who like to watch videos. Don’t show my ads to the people who like to opt in for things.

I want you to put my ad in front of people who are buyers. And that is a completely different set of inventory. You know, Meta has, what, like, 2.6 billion people, give or take, whatever it is. They’re not all the same, right? Like, there’s a lot of different behaviors. And Meta knows who the buyers are.

That’s why it’s such a powerful platform. They have data on you that you couldn’t believe. They know everything about you.

That’s why it’s a, you know, trillion-dollar, multi-trillion-dollar company or whatever it is, right? Like, when you run an ad with a conversion objective, and you say, put my ad in front of people who like to buy things similar to what I’m selling. And then those people get onto your list, whether they’re coming in through a low-ticket product funnel, or whether they’re coming in through an opt-in funnel with, you know, a tripwire offer on the thank you page.

Like, I like those funnels because I know I’m getting quality people on my list. And even for the people who opt in or who discover me because they see my face 10 times in the feed, they’re like, who the hell is this guy? And they start looking me up.

Well, all of my ads are being shown to people who are proven buyers of the stuff that I’m selling. Because again, Facebook knows that already. So once those people do get onto the list, yeah, they tend to buy a lot better versus these other people who’ve just done only organic and have never optimized for buying behavior.

So, you know, it’s, and I work with a lot of e-commerce companies and like e-commerce companies, I’d say 98% of them, 99% of them, the way that they grow is with ads. That’s why they grow so big, because they are, you know, breakeven or most of the time, first-order profitable. They’re getting a buyer.

And then when they’re selling stuff via email, they’re just, you know, putting up numbers by selling more stuff to their existing base of buyers.

[Igor Kheifets]

[14:22 – 17:15]

I was. I actually give it a lot of thought as to why email works because I’m in the midst of writing my second and third books. And just so it happens that I’m kind of writing them almost in parallel. They’re slightly different, but, you know, there’s a bit of an overlap.

And so in the past few months, I’ve been actually pondering a lot on the subject of why email has been so, so much better than everything social. And there are studies coming out every year continuously. This is nonstop McKinsey and whatever, and, you know, Harvard Business Review and whatnot.

And they’re always confirming the same thing over and over again. That email just produces more revenue per click, per buyer, higher conversions, and so on. And I arrived at the conclusion that someone’s email inbox, and tell me if this resonates at all, but I think that someone’s email inbox is the equivalent of their internet home address.

So kind of like, you know, we don’t invite just anyone to our home in the real world, right? In fact, we don’t even share a phone number. You know, when I got started in the business, I was still very much a customer in the whole pickup art community.

I was still trying to figure out social dynamics, how to date properly, et cetera. And one thing that I see now, that’s a big distinction compared to what it was. Now, when somebody does a cold approach on the street, oftentimes they don’t exchange phone numbers, not even emails, but rather Instagram accounts or something like that.

So people create these filters using social media. They don’t give you their home address. They give you their Instagram account, right?

And we all know that if you’re someone’s Facebook friend, you’re not really their friend. You know, a real friend is not a Facebook friend. So with an email, though, if you’ve got someone’s email, their personal email, especially under their work email, it’s a whole different story.

It’s like you’ve been let into their digital home, and you’re now allowed to come and visit every day. So if you’re showing up every day, every other day, once a week, whatever your frequency is for emailing them, you get credibility points. And when they’re in that inbox, they’re in a totally different frame of mind as opposed to social media.

Because I don’t know about you, for example, but the days when I used to go on social media, I would never go there to work. I would never go there to make decisions. I was going there to either kill time or escape the ambiguity of life.

Or maybe I was overwhelmed, and my brain was tired. I was just trying to escape. I was never going on Instagram to make a life decision.

You know what I mean?

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[17:16 – 18:19]

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. One thing I’ll add is I viewed email as like, I forget where I heard this the first time, but email is a piece of infrastructure inside the internet. Whereas a platform, like a social platform, is on top of the internet, right?

And platforms come and go, and they change. I think people know that, but you’re always going to have your email, right? So it is built into the actual skeleton of what the internet is.

And I use my email inbox as a to-do list. Because I have my business and my personal, and there’s stuff in my personal right now, I have stuff for my accountant that we have to get ready for tax season, and I’m leaving those items in there. And each day I’ll go in and deal with them over two or three things with my business.

I’m like, okay, I got to reply to this lead. I got to answer this person’s question. This other person has this other opportunity they want to discuss.

So I leave those things in there. And that’s how I organize. I don’t know if that’s the best way to do it, but I think a lot of people tend to do it that way.

 But yeah, that’s where everything is.

[Igor Kheifets]

[18:19 – 18:23]

What do I do? I email myself assignments.

[Chris Orzechowski]

[18:23 – 18:51]

I do that too. It’ll be like 10:30 at night, and I’ll be in bed. I’ll be like, oh my gosh, I forgot something.

Or I got a product idea, and I’ll roll over, I’ll grab my phone, and literally email myself. Yeah, that’s where it goes. Otherwise, I’m going to lose, and I’m going to forget it.

And I know it’s going to be there for me. And it’s one of those things where it’s funny because people always talk about, like, oh, hitting the younger demographic. These people, they don’t have- That’s so not true.

[Igor Kheifets]

[18:51 – 19:04]

That’s so not true, man. They all say that young people don’t use email. That’s absolutely freaking not true.

My daughter is 13. She’s got an email address because without it, she can’t log into the school system.

[Chris Orzechowski]

[19:04 – 19:27]

Yeah. So what I always viewed it as was like, whenever people would say that, they’d worry about the younger markets. Oh, these people, they’re not buying the email.

I’m like, well, they’re not buying anyway. They don’t have a credit card. Once they get a credit card, then email becomes the most important thing because where does your credit card login information get sent to?

Like it gets sent to your email, right? Like everything flows through that inbox.

[Igor Kheifets]

[19:27 – 19:49]

And as soon as they get a job or become a part of the workforce, so to speak, even if they start their own business, especially if they start their own business, but even when they get a job, they will get a company email. They will need an email to exchange stuff with their coworkers. They’ll be added to a Slack channel.

That is of course, requires an email account. They can’t even start a social media account without having an email address.

[Chris Orzechowski]

[19:49 – 20:52]

Yeah. Yeah. It’s everything.

And that’s why I’m just, I’m bullish. You know, again, like with all these other social platforms, it’s always the same playbook. It’s the same playbook of like, they incentivize you with a lot of free reach.

They get people onto the platform. You get addicted to posting there because you’re like, oh my gosh, every time I post, I mean, Facebook did this. Instagram did this.

YouTube did this. Twitter did this. TikTok is going like now people’s reach is dropping on TikTok, I’ve been reading.

And like, you know, there might be a number of reasons for that. But I also think it’s because, like, we got to start making more money with ads. And like, it’s like, okay, we gave you all this free reach.

Now you’ve got to pay to play. And like, again, I’m not against that. I actually prefer ads.

I prefer ads to everything else. Because like, sometimes I’ll post content and I’ll like be making a video. I’m like, this is cringe. 

This is like annoying. Like, I look like an idiot. I sound like an idiot.

 And I’m like, what am I doing here? Like, why don’t I just fire up an ad campaign? And I know I’m going to put my thing.

I don’t have to worry about like, oh, I wonder how many impressions this is going to get. Like, here, just take my money. I’ll pay for the impressions.

Like, just put it in front of people who want to buy. You know?

[Igor Kheifets] 

[20:52 – 22:17]

I think that’s the ultimate competitive advantage in today’s world. Both in general lead generation, but specifically on social media. Because, I mean, Dan Kennedy said it best when he said that whoever can pay the most to acquire a customer wins.

And I think that doesn’t change. That principle does not change. And today it’s probably more expensive than ever in history to generate customers online.

It’s the most competitive it’s ever been so far. Probably going to be even more competitive. It’s the most fragmented it’s ever been.

Because now there’s like a million social platforms, a million video platforms, a million everything. But fortunately, there’s only one inbox. You know, sure.

Some people may have five emails: a work email, a personal email, an email for this, and an email for that. I personally own at least 20 different inboxes. But there’s still, amongst these inboxes, there’s one where I log in, the primary one where I get all the emails.

And, you know, if I’m… You know, you said something really cool. You said, you know, you’ve got to do your taxes as we’re getting close to tax season.

And where is your accountant going to send you, you know, an email or request saying, hey, Chris, I’m missing two invoices. I’m sure he’s not going to do it, you know, on Facebook. He’s not going to, you know, hit you up on Facebook Messenger for that.

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[22:17 – 22:22]

I’d block him. I would think it was a scam if he did. I’d be like, who commandeered your account?

[Igor Kheifets]

[22:23 – 24:10]

Right. So same thing. Amazon delivery notices.

You said credit card statements, bank statements, and any kind of bill usually come in the mail. Email is the official, is the recognized media for government communication because the IRS, if they need something, they’ll send you an email. I mean, heck, I’m like in between Toronto and Bulgaria.

And even in Bulgaria, a backwards country where everything is like 20 years backwards. I swear they still do things here that I can’t believe. Like they don’t do e-signature.

You can’t like it, it’s not legal for you to sign something here using DocuSign and all the rest. You have to go to something called a notary that has to witness you signing stuff. I mean, come on, in the US and Canada, you can buy a million-dollar home literally without leaving your house, just by DocuSign, you know, over Zoom if needed.

I mean, come on. Anyway, I digress. So it’s the recognized way for the government to communicate with you.

So, I mean, in terms of trust, credibility, reach, this is as good as it gets. And the numbers prove it too. I actually wanna shift the conversation a little bit away from the idea that email’s the best.

We know email’s the best. If anyone’s listening to this show, they know email’s the best. You mentioned two words that often do not get used in the same sentence.

Segmentation and personalization. Can you walk us through your idea of both?

[Chris Orzechowski]

[24:12 – 28:40]

Yeah, so, excuse me. Segmentation is basically just putting people in the buckets based on what you know about them. And again, this is a reason why all these ad platforms work so well is because they have data and they know everything about you.

But as soon as you advertise or post something, and you get someone’s email from that platform, none of that data comes through, right? So you don’t know anything. You don’t know why they’re on your list.

You don’t know what they do. You don’t know what kind of business they have. You know, like, so what I started doing when I started surveying people, I used this tool called rightmessage.com.

I don’t know if you ever heard of it. It’s Brendan Dunn’s tool. It’s absurd what it can do.

It’s the coolest thing. And no one really knows about it yet. But in the next, I think, two to three years, everyone’s going to know about it.

Everyone’s going to be using it. But what it does is it allows you to survey people. And basically, my survey asks a few important questions.

It’s like, hey, do you have an email list? Yes or no. What kind of business do you have?

I want to know if you’re a copywriter. I want to know if you own an agency. I want to know if you own an e-commerce brand or a SaaS brand.

And even just knowing those two things can completely change how I do marketing. Because if you don’t have an email list, I’m not going to sell you something about how to sell to your list. Like, obviously, why would I pitch you that product?

I could pitch you a product on how to start a list or grow a list, and you’d probably buy that. But if I sell you something else that’s further down the chain, you’re not going to buy that because you haven’t completed step one. And even just knowing this percentage of people are copywriters, and I know who they are, and now they’re tagged in my system via a custom field that they’re a copywriter.

Like, OK, now I could sell you the course that I have about getting clients, about building an agency, about becoming an email copywriter, about anything related to client services. Now, if you own a SaaS company, you should never see those offers. You’re never going to buy that.

And not only are you not going to buy that, but you’re also going to say, oh, this list is not for me. Now, obviously, everyone doesn’t have the same problem. But there are so many different ways that you can segment people.

I want to know people based on the list size. If you have 25,000-plus subs, you’re going into a completely different automation. You’re going into a completely different customer journey.

Because, again, I’m not going to sell you something about growing your list. You’ve already grown your list. And yeah, you’re going to still do things to grow it.

But you are probably a fit for my private client consulting. You’re probably a fit for my agency. People don’t do this at all.

And again, it doesn’t mean you can’t make one-size-fits-all marketing work. I have made a lot of money, a lot of money with one-size-fits-all marketing. I’ve helped my clients do that in the past.

But from where I’m sitting, that Wayne Gretzky quote, don’t skate to where the puck is, skate to where it’s going. This is where it’s going. Your Facebook feed, if you were to log into Facebook, we have similar interests.

We’re in a similar industry. We’re probably going to have some overlap. But I would imagine you probably have different hobbies than I do, and that’s totally fine.

Our feeds are going to look personalized based on what we like. Email is not yet personalized. It’s a one-size-fits-all experience.

It’s kind of like the last holdout, where everything’s kind of one-size-fits-all. So segmentation is just getting clear on who people are, what their challenges are, what they need help with, and why they showed up in the first place. Once you know those things, it can help with offer routing.

It could help with putting people into different automations. It could help. One of the questions I ask is, hey, when are you looking to get help with your email marketing if they’re interested in actually getting help with it?

And it was like 30% of people said ASAP. And then another 20-something percent said in the next 90 days. And I said, why am I not just aggressively going after this little segment of people who are like, help me.

I need help right now. Instead, what happens is like, oh, well, you don’t know anything about your people ordinarily. So then they all go into the same sequence.

And maybe you’re pitching your services that day, or maybe you’re not. Maybe you’re not pitching your services again for three weeks when these people are like, help me, help me. I need help right now.

So segmentation is just asking questions and bucketing people. There are a lot of granular ways to look at it. You can think about it like, OK, they came from this lead magnet, or they came from this ad campaign versus this social campaign, or whatever.

And that stuff’s all useful, too. But it’s just asking people like, who are you? Why are you here?

What do you want help with? And then routing people to those offers. And if that’s all you did, you would make so much more money.

Because what that allows you to do is run concurrent promotions at the same time. And it doesn’t mean you have to go from sending one email a day to seven emails a day. But you’ve probably written hundreds.

I’ve written thousands of emails.

[Igor Kheifets]

[28:40 – 28:43]

If you’re big enough and you have enough segments, you can send one a day.

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[28:44 – 30:43]

Yeah. I have 8.3% of my list is e-commerce brands. So my list is about 12,000 people.

So what is that? That’s about, let’s say, it’s about 900 to 1,000 e-commerce brands. And a lot of times, people are like, I need more subs.

I need more subs. I’m like, well, maybe you do. And it’s always good to get more email subscribers, of course.

But I look at this, I’m like, OK, I have 1,000 e-commerce brands on my list. How many do I need on my client roster? 30?

You know what I mean? Maybe I have everyone I need right now. And maybe if I just segmented better and sent them specific messaging and specific campaigns, or put them into an automation that I already have built that I haven’t been putting people through because I had no way to route these people before, this is where the real alpha is with email.

This is where your edge is. And again, it’s more of an advanced tactic. But even if you have two segments, for a while, I was just looking at my list as people who are copywriters and sell services, or people who have their own email list.

And even just making that distinction is huge. Because again, you’re going to kind of have a different conversation with both of those people, right? With the people who are the business owners who have their own list, it’s like, well, here’s what you should be doing for your business.

And here’s how I think about it, and blah, blah, blah. And then for the people who are selling services, here’s how to sell these kinds of services. And what things you could package and sell, what the price points are, and blah, blah, blah.

Those are two separate conversations. They’re linked, obviously, by the topic of email. But the context is completely different.

And this is why people’s list growth stalls. Because they’re doing all these things to grow the list. They’re getting all these people into the front door.

But then everyone’s going into the same track. And then what’s happening is some people are resonating with what you’re talking about today, and other people are dropping off, either via unsubscribing. Or just, I call it attention attrition.

It’s like, they’re a Schrodinger’s subscriber. It’s like, they’re on the list, but they’re not opening. So are they on the list?

Technically, they are, but they’re really not. You know what I mean? And everyone has these subs.

You have these subs. And it’s like, you’re paying for them to be there. And they’re not doing anything.

Because you’re not communicating in the right way. And they’re like, maybe I’ll stick around, but I’m not going to pay attention. It’s like, well, they’re a dead subscriber anyway at that point.

[Igor Kheifets] 

[30:44 – 34:25]

You know, I was talking to a buddy of mine, a fellow email guy, Pete Reginello. And he has a great piece on Medium about phantom subscribers. He was writing about how he was trying to clean his list.

And he was looking at who was opening, who was not opening. And then he ended up removing a bunch of people who weren’t opening his emails for a few months. And then he started getting emails from those people saying that they’re no longer getting his emails.

And his emails are pretty long, very entertaining. And a lot of them don’t even pitch anything. It’s just pure entertainment value about email.

And so I enjoy reading them. And I understand if all of a sudden I’m not getting his emails, like I would be asking the question. And he discovered that right now there’s a big crisis with email around open rates, specifically open rate tracking, because browsers block cookies.

Apple is not, I think, anyone who’s on Apple, it doesn’t show or something. I know that ProtonMail, which is privacy first email inbox, does not show opens. And I started looking into what I have going on.

And I’m seeing a lot of people who don’t open a single email, but when they click, I can track it. So all of a sudden, you’ve got somebody who hasn’t opened 60 emails, but they clicked. So the opens are not getting tracked.

So the open rate as a metric is no longer a reliable metric for sure. There are definitely going to be subscribers on your list who appear as if they don’t open, but they do actually. And the only way, the only real measurement, I think, at this point, for your list is clicks and the sales you’re making from it.

But back to the subject of segmentation, the way I look at segmentation is kind of like a cake with lots of layers, maybe like a pancake steak, a pancake stack. Pancake steak would be nice, right? A pancake stack where every layer is a different way to segment.

You mentioned segment based on the funnel they came in through, segment based on the ad, a segment based on the product they bought, segment based on who they are, a segment based on which offer in your entire timeline of offers or pipeline of offers they purchased, are they front-end buyer only, back-end buyer, and so on and so forth. And the more ways you can do it, the deeper, the more granular you can go with your audience and do what Amazon basically does. I think Amazon is a great example of segmentation where if you get on Amazon and, for instance, you put Think and Grow Rich into your cart, I’m more than confident then they will immediately tell you that whoever buys Think and Grow Rich also gets, and they’ll put in like seven habits of effective people, Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad Poor Dad, Bob Proctor’s books or Wallace D.

Wattles, something. And so all of a sudden, they are starting to make an impression. They kind of paint a picture about who you are.

Then the next day, you’re going to get more recommendations similar to what you already got because they’re like, oh, this person is buying success books oriented towards getting rich. They’re not going to send you a success book about communication. They’re going to send you a success book about money.

And I think that’s a great example of what good segmentation is in the world we live in right now. 

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[34:26 – 37:28]

Yeah. Yeah, and that’s where, once you start segmenting, then the personalization piece kind of comes naturally. There are a lot of ways.

Again, this is a very deep ocean in terms of possible things that you can do. Part of it is like offer routing, bundling, and recommended product stuff. And again, that’s such an easy, easy.

Like, if you know, again, like with my copywriters, like if you bought my client acquisition book, I’m like, okay, do you want email copy Academy as well? Like, probably, you know, that’s kind of in line versus this other completely different thing that I’m selling. But what’s cool about it, too, is like, again, using that tool right message that I mentioned, like this is what my agency does.

So that’s why I’m so like gung ho about it because it’s really crazy. You could take the segmentation data, and you could actually make copy variations. So, like your emails, you could have a thousand different variations of the email based on the questions that you ask.

So, like if you’re if I’m talking about email marketing, it’s like, you know, in your copywriting business, you’re probably using email marketing to blah, blah, blah to, you know, to sell the, you know, to sell email packages to your clients. In your SaaS business, you’re probably using email marketing to try to convert more free trial people into paying customers. In your e-commerce business, you’re probably using email marketing to increase your retention rate, your second-order rate, and increase your profit margins or reduce your meta dependency.

In your brick-and-mortar business, you’re using email to drive foot traffic, right? So like that opening line of that email can have four or five or six different variations, right? So, as soon as someone reads it, like, oh, this is for me, right?

The next line, I could personalize something else, I could personalize based on the list size. It’s like, and if you’re still under 1000 subscribers, then you’re probably experiencing blah, blah, blah. If you’re over 25,000 subscribers, you probably already figured out blah, blah, blah.

If you’re stuck between five and 10,000 subscribers, you’re right. So, like what’s happening now is now we have, you know, 25 different variations of that email. If someone is an e-commerce store with less than 1000 subs, or if someone is a brick-and-mortar store with 10,000, 25,000 subs, like the messaging will automatically change in the email, and you do this in your landing pages too.

Like, I have a landing page for my write yourself rich course, which like the headline and subhead completely change for business type, right? Kind of based on like some more things that I was just saying in the email. So like when someone lands on the page, they’re like, oh, this is for me, right?

And that I think is like, once you have all that data and you know what people need to see, it’s very easy to just go in and make these personalizations. So, like you could have 150 variations of your landing page without cloning a single page because the copy just updates automatically in your emails. Like you could actually set up to where you have 100,000 variations of your email.

Not that you would necessarily need that many, but the possibilities of what you could do are absolutely insane. You know, people talk about it like with advertising and talk about creative diversity. You need to have all these different angles because you have to heal these different pockets of people.

And like, yes, that’s true. And that’s what bigger brands are spending hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a month are doing with their ads. Like they’re launching hundreds and hundreds of ads every single month with all these different micro angles to attract all these people.

It’s like, well, if that works with advertising, like why wouldn’t it work for email?

[Igor Kheifets]

[37:28 – 37:37]

I’m like, it absolutely does because you probably think it originated through email in my opinion, because email is, you know, it just gives you an opportunity to try a new angle every day.

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[37:38 – 39:20]

Yeah, yeah. And I’m like, you notice like there’s some things you say where you’re like, oh, that hit a vein, right? All of a sudden your inbox, it’s like lighting up like a Christmas tree with all those replies.

It’s like, oh my gosh, like this was great. Or like I needed this today or whatever, right? And we’re entering this phase of marketing where, like, all marketing is going to become one-to-one at a certain point, right?

Because everything is going to be, I mean, you see this with big brands. There are a lot of big brands that are just like these legacy brands, and they’re huge, and they just market one way. And then other brands will want a similar product, but they’ll make the branding like very millennial coded or they’ll make the branding very like senior coded, and there’ll be the same product, but they’re just changing the brand.

They’re changing the wrapper on the bottle. So it appeals to moms over 40 or dudes in their 20s, right? And there’ll be like the same exact product, but you have these two different brands now who are just chiseling off a piece of the identity and just marking the same exact thing, just doing a better job by marketing to the sub market.

So I know this is all like very, you know, for everyone listening, this is a little bit like abstract, but like this is what Gene Schwartz talks about in stages of awareness, right? Like, as markets get more and more, excuse me, in sophistication, as markets get more and more sophisticated, like the fifth stage is they fracture off by identity, right? And that is where a lot of markets are developed now, right?

Like, there’s so many, like you mentioned, there’s so much competition. There are so many competitors. It’s never been easier before to like launch a Shopify store or launch a newsletter, whatever it is, like now things are starting to fracture by identity.

It doesn’t mean you have to accept a small piece of the market. It just means you can now change all of your marketing to appeal to all these different identity groups at the same time. And everyone’s seeing, they’re only seeing what’s on their screen.

They’re not seeing what’s on everyone else’s screen. They’re just seeing the message in front of them. So it’s really crazy.

[Igor Kheifets]

[39:21 – 43:04]

It is, it is really crazy. I think we’re kind of like in transition, we’re crossing a chasm or a bridge right now from the age of mass marketing to really hyper-customized, hyper-targeted brands going after a very specific, very narrow group of people. Fortunately, email allows us to do that.

You mentioned that the big brands have to now run hundreds of ads. I feel like it’s the smaller brands too, because first of ad fatigue, freaking instant, as soon as you launch an ad, it’s on a decline very quickly. My media buyers are launching, I don’t know, 7, 10 new ads per week.

And I’m not even that big, not even spending that much. So ad fatigue is pretty crazy. I think more than ever, it is now important to understand who your customer is and use your email list to just test as many angles as you possibly can.

Because you mentioned that you can take the same product and you can reposition to different segments of the market. This is a concept that allowed me to kind of breathe a whole new life into my business several times. Over and over again.

And what I’ve discovered is that, I guess, some segments of the market are just better. They’re just better in terms of they’re more receptive to your message. They’re easier to do business with.

They’re willing to spend more money with you. It’s just when you tap that segment, it’s kind of like the 80-20. Let’s say you’ve got 10 different segments in that market.

And you’re going to have to pick two of them, or even one, would be the segment. Kind of like in the dating space, what’s the segment you’re going to go after? Guys in their 20s trying to swipe on Tinder or the divorced, balding, aging, beer-belly guy who’s trying to get back in the game? I’m not divorced. Working an IT job. I got the ball in the beer belly, but yeah.

But you know what I mean, right? you basically you go after somebody with a bleeding neck problem who’s looking for a highly specialized solution and so an example from the dating market would be either that guy the recently divorced dude who’s trying to get back in the game after years of being out or you know same guy but now he’s trying to get the eggs back that’s actually been you know a pretty interesting experience to observe the existence of that market the get your eggs back market it’s crazy i got a buddy who’s no longer uh even running any ads he’s been in the dating community for a long long time and all he does is one-on-one consulting about getting your ex back for for men and most of these men are in their 30s and above he’s got a couple of clients in their 60s still thinking about how can i get her back wow that’s insane and he charges five grand for like just one-on-one coaching right and um i mean think how incredible that is in terms of a market segment so he doesn’t have to go run a million different ads he just found that you know gold gold mine if you will yeah yeah i mean yeah it’s it’s it’s interesting

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[43:04 – 45:27]

I’m like i remember like one of my first ever clients was in the dating market and you mentioned there was like two avatars with this business he said that there were four um but he said it was the the middle-aged guy who’s divorced who hasn’t had a date in 20 years and now he needs to go back there’s the older guy who just like never got married for any number of reasons or never had a girlfriend and now all of his friends are married and he’s like all alone he has no one to hang out with and now he wants like a wife or a girlfriend or whatever there’s the young kid who was never successful with girls maybe he was nerdy or whatever and like he’s never been kissed he’s a virgin whatever and then there’s the fourth guy who was like he was very popular in high school and college all of a sudden you know you graduate you move back home and move wherever and you move to a new city you don’t know anyone and you’re like starting from scratch you don’t have the benefit of like those social uh social scaffolding right like all those opportunities and he’s like i don’t know what the hell to do now because i used to be the man and now i’m not and it was just so interesting to like you know these people might even look similar all right like maybe just separated by age but um it’s crazy to think like you you have a choice right depending on what your product is you could hyper focus in one or two of those or if you have a more mass market product depending on what it is you could say how do i create messaging for all four of these buckets and how do i get people to tell me which bucket they’re in and then just change the copy in the landing pages so that they see that this program which probably works for everyone like your program like we look at the context of your your your front end funnel right like it teaches people how to build lists and monetize them there’s people who are working at a job and they’re just kind of like dipping their toe in the water and they want to leave and they have golden handcuffs and they want to start a business there’s people who’ve already started the business and they’re not like finding traction they can’t grow it there’s people who have already gotten some momentum but now they want to scale it big and there’s people who are already at the top who are just looking for an edge and like is there something in here that i don’t know and like what else can i learn from you were to like make my already successful business even more successful right so like there’s even an opportunity there to like talk to all four of those groups of people maybe there’s a few more again i don’t know your exact market as well as you do i’m just kind of like riffing here like there’s so many opportunities to just kind of like hyper focus in on like what does this person need to hear in order to make them convert yeah basically your product doesn’t need to change because your product delivers what it delivers yeah i think what

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [45:27 – 47:25]

You’re what I’m hearing you say um i don’t remember who said it but it was such a good accurate description basically it’s kind of like you’ve got a product and you got to sell it and you got two three four different types of people you could sell it to every person has to be spoken to in a certain way like you said and if you just try to to talk to them all in the same way you will get some of them but for most of them it’s like you’re gonna be speaking english to them but they speak spanish yeah so they kind of sort of read your stuff hear your stuff but it doesn’t go in beneath the surface to the monkey brain to make that buying decision it has to be there has to be triggered certain way i remember reading about um um a book by this guy who’s the brother of the dude who yells um are you ready to rumble like the announcer oh yeah yeah yeah so he’s got actually a marketing book because his brother is in um was in infomercials for the most good part of his life and he and he was writing that you sell different to men and women um and uh for example he gave an example about a study trying to get people to quit smoking and what they found out is for women what worked was to really sell how it would affect the tone of their skin how the skin would become wrinkly and it’ll lose the glow right for men uh you had to talk about cancer or losing their ability to get an erection or or the teeth i don’t remember exactly what may be losing hair i don’t remember but different completely different arguments have to be made rather than try to kind of spray and pray which is what we do instinctively right we’re like okay writing a sales page ah should include this benefit or shouldn’t kind of like both benefits 

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[47:26 – 48:35]

You know what you know let’s just have throw it all yeah exactly yeah like it’s not that doesn’t work it’s just i think that that’s i i just look at this like it’s not that like it’s a lot it’s it’s a lot of work to like set this stuff up but i think like for people who are like i’m gonna scale big or i have a big business and like we’re we’re stale and stagnant like that’s where the lift comes from you know what i mean like it comes from doing one-to-one marketing like you’re saying like if you put a prospect 10 prospects in front of you talk to them each a little bit differently like i just think that’s where like the real alpha is like everyone talks about alpha and like investing it’s like where’s your edge over the index like this is your edge over everyone else so it’s gonna be interesting to see i mean it’s it’s exciting it’s an exciting time for email in general like you know and i do love uh the chaos with these platforms disruption and now like everyone’s posting a lot of the mediocre AI slop and it’s like how do you stand out it’s like well don’t even play that game just get them onto your email list and don’t worry about it you know what i mean like let let everyone else roll around in the mud out on social and like you just you know sell them stuff and solve their problems and like make their lives better so i don’t know it’s it’s

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [48:35 – 51:48]

An exciting time fundamentals still didn’t change if you get the right message in front of the right person um you you made sale um the empathy you have to have to your market the ability to understand them the ability to talk about their dreams their problems their fears their enemies you know their suspicions that just doesn’t go away because the brain didn’t change yeah now there’s like there’s not two social media platforms there’s 22 um but fundamentally people are still looking for the same stuff the same markets are still the best markets it’s the health wealth fitness relationships um that doesn’t change either people still prefer taking a pill to lose weight to an exercise um you know machine and then so on so forth so that stuff doesn’t change uh what what changes is the technology we use to deliver the message unfortunately for us email doesn’t i mean there’s still there’s changes to email but not drastic uh for example last year the year before i’ve seen a lot of guys in uh in my space uh get um get hit delivery deliverability rate wise all of a sudden a lot of people could mail thousands of clicks um in a single email you know down to a few hundred so that was a big blow they weren’t watching their email deliverability they weren’t verifying their you know sending certificates dki mspf and all that mumbo jumbo which i don’t understand um and they really weren’t watching that and um and they got punished so that part is important to keep track of for sure but you know i think email is the great example of the linda effect you know the more something’s been around the more it’s likely to gonna you know be there moving forward um all right um one two things so first off guys if you’re listening to this and you want to uh get a deep dive into chris’s philosophy strategies etc uh you should get his book uh the book is titled uh make it rain he actually got another book to scale while you sleep that book is more of a for an e-commerce brand owner so if you’re an e-commerce brand owner go get scale while you sleep as well both books are available on amazon however i imagine you can get them on your website as well which is the email copywriter.com the email copywriter.com so uh grab the books make it rain and um scale while you sleep and one more thing i want to do before i wrap up we have like a traditional show where uh i throw some i fire some rapid fire questions at you and your job is to answer like a statement or a few words but you’re not allowed to like really extrapolate and elaborate on the answer okay? 

What’s the most overrated metric in the email market?

[Chris Orzechowski] 

I guess open rates

[Igor Kheifets] 

[51:48 – 52:21]

Yeah i would agree i would definitely agree.

One book every copywriter must have on their shelf 

[Chris Orzechowski] 

uh gosh um can i look at mine real quick make it rain obviously make it rain um man this is a tough one i guess i would say i mean one that i’ve been getting really back into is ready fire aim it’s i’ve been rereading it again and i you know that just because it’s recent i’d say that it’s a really solid book i mean it’s

[Igor Kheifets] 

[52:21 – 52:45]

Really hands down in the top 10 for me all time, along with uh never split the difference uh for sure a ready fire aim amazing book, and this really smart guy who wrote it too, yeah. 

The best subject line you’ve ever written or seen, 

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[52:45 – 52:51]

The best one I ever wrote that got that highest response uh, good and bad was called Two Goals One Cup, which is obviously a play on that video two girls one cup

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [52:51 – 53:13]

Dude i swear to God i swear to god i have something similar it’s it’s two books one author okay yeah because when somebody buys one of my books i’ll send him an email be like hey did you know i wrote another book would you like for me to bundle them and ship you know so but yeah i know i know what you’re talking about i wonder if our listeners are old enough

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[53:13 – 53:27]

To know I had some people freak out when I sent that because like goals kind of sounds like girls, it’s close enough, you know, dude i had women, especially, who were not, they were like, there were a few women who were like cursing me off i was cracking up, it was so funny really. Women actually

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [53:27 – 53:38]

I was like wow i didn’t know you saw it too and they’re like shut the fuck up, it’s very funny. What’s your go-to drink when you’re in a deep writing session

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[53:39 – 53:47]

uh probably rain energy drink or monster uh the white monster you know I love pounding those man

[Igor Kheifets] 

[53:47 – 53:59]

They just get me like going, you know, yeah, nothing like that, sugar and caffeine to really again your inner inner hemmingway yeah, if you could only send one email a week, what day and time

[Chris Orzechowski]

[53:59 – 54:59]

would it be monday uh every monday i wake up and just feel like motivated you know like i’m ready to get after it and usually yeah like it’s it’s like i’m just ready to attack like i i love i love what i do you know so like it’ll be monday morning first thing um because those emails are i feel like they come off motivational and people really like those what is the black belt skill of a modern marketer oh that’s a tough one uh i really think it’s ads if you know how to buy traffic the whole world just opens up to you because then like your email list grows itself and then you can just kick off massive amounts of profit um it’s hard it’s a hard skill that’s why i say that’s like black belt because if you know how to buy customers from the customer store aka facebook or google or whatever you will never

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [54:59 – 55:07]

Like you will never be out of the game, good point. One piece of software you can’t live without

[Chris Orzechowski]

[55:10 – 55:15]

um well i would say my esp convert kit, but if I can give a second answer, it’d be right message because it’s just like game-changing 

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [55:15 – 55:22]

Damn it i gotta check it out. The biggest copywriting sin

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[55:22 – 56:01]

You see daily um people just copy and paste stuff from AI you know like it’s everyone knows you can tell there’s i’m not against AI you know like i’ve used AI for writing subfront like if i’m gonna pitch them like i need to get five ads up today and like i don’t have time to sit down and do it i’ll just bang them out and like we’ll test it we’ll iterate later right um but like for things like emails it’s like it’s not that you can’t do it but like you need to at least edit you need to at least like inject your own personality and like you know i think it’s one of those things where like i’ll use AI to write other stuff pieces of landing pages like i don’t care you know i’ll

[Igor Kheifets] 

[56:01 – 56:28]

Go in and edit it, but like emails always written by hand, okay, actually i wanted to ask you earlier, but i forgot how, in percentage-wise, how much of that three thousand daily three thousand word daily regimen, um, is written by hand by you all of it, all of it, from no way I’ll use AI to do

[Chris Orzechowski]

[56:28 – 56:56]

research and stuff like to help me hey i’m trying to like come up with an analogy for this or like you know here’s five bullets i need like five more and then i’ll take them and you know maybe like edit them but like i’d say okay maybe 98 99 right like we won’t say it’s 100 but like because maybe that counts for one or two percentage points doing that but like yeah i just sit down and type and you know it’s like email in the morning is 500 to 1000 words and then i’ll get another 2000 words either through client work or other stuff throughout the day

[Igor Kheifets] 

[56:59 – 57:06]

okay um, the most expensive mistake you learned from doing email marketing

[Chris Orzechowski]

[57:08 – 58:06]

oh i don’t know that’s a tough one um shutting off ads too early when you were slightly under break-even i had some campaigns years ago that i was running and um they were like one campaign was like break-even just under break-even one was like you know 70 percent break-even uh should be 70 percent uh 0.7 row as whatever and i was stupid because i turned them off instead of like letting them run because they turned into like a between a 6 and 12 x rows depending on cohort over the course of 18 months so that was the most expensive mistake i made because if i like plowed as much money as humanly possible my list would have been three times four times five times bigger so i would say that’s the most expensive mistake i made like not understanding my like having a way to reliably track my ltv and understand what it was going to back out to

[Igor Kheifets] 

[58:06 – 58:55]

over a 12 or 18 month period you know tracking has been very very hard i had to get a dedicated person just for tracking it’s ridiculous like you used to be able i don’t know 10 5 years ago even you could have just run your own ads yourself maybe hire some guy but the tracking part just Google analytics done now oh my god a dedicated person just to to install the tracking ensure it’s working all the cookies all the sessions cross-referencing people like see your stuff on this device then grab their phone google you get on your thing from a different thing i mean ridiculous just absolutely ridiculous yeah it’s crazy um cool one last question. Favorite wrestler of all time

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[58:56 – 59:55]

Favorite wrestler um i would say probably Alexander Carolyn the russian russian bear he was undefeated for 10 years ruan gardner beat him in the 2000 olympics i remember watching that live and i that was like the first year i started wrestling um but i was just always amazed because he was just like an absolute freak i mean like 10 10 years unscored upon 13 years undefeated he’s like a four-time olympic medalist like 12 time world or 10 time world champ something like that um and if you ever google a picture of him like the dude is just terrifying like i you know i remember just seeing a picture of him like lifting the deal of his veins are popping out of his neck and i was like this dude’s just a unit this dude is a monster and uh so i remember like training when i was young i was gonna be like alexander carolyn when i grow up but he was just he looks like a he looks like a

 [Igor Kheifets]

 [59:55 – 1:00:03]

Russian villain in any western movie, like yeah he’s like makes ivan drago look tame you know

[Chris Orzechowski] 

[1:00:03 – 1:00:09]

What I mean like he’s just it’s just amazing truly like once in a once in a century type of athlete.

[Igor Kheifets] 

[1:00:09 – 1:01:36]

You know well there you go um guys if you take anything from this call it’s that you should uh because we said so so this was Chris Orzechowski and uh you should go check out his books make it rain and how to make money in your sleep how to scale while you sleep how to scale how to scale while you sleep both books are available on amazon as well as his website at the email marketer email copywriter the ah damn it theemailcopywriter.com  there you go okay so this uh this concludes today’s episode.

Thank you so much for listening this is Igor Kheifets and Chris Orzechowski for the list building lifestyle till next time we chat have a good one.

[1:01:01]

Thank you for listening to the list building lifestyle get access to the previous episodes transcript of today’s show as well as other exclusive content at listbuildinglifestyleshow.com  also remember to claim your free copy of my best-selling book at www.igorsbook.com it explains how i made millions with list building starting from scratch plus i’ll give you three thousand dollars worth of free bonuses including my best landing page templates email swipe files and traffic blueprints go to www.igorsbook.com now to claim your free package