Igor grills Andre Chaperon, world’s leading authority on story-selling and story-driven email marketing on how he pulls over a hundred dollars per click from his list. Igor and Andre discuss the keys to email sequence success and the core mistakes rookie list builders make that hold them back from massive email profits.
The Secrets Of $106.63 EPCs With Andre Chaperon
Welcome back to List Building Lifestyle with Igor Kheifets.
Today, we're speaking with Andre Chaperon.
Igor: Andre is the creator of Autoresponder Madness and Affiliate Bully. He's also been featured as the world's leading authority on email marketing on the famous Traffic & Conversion Summit by Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher and Mind Valley. Andre, how are you doing?
Andre: I’m doing awesome. How are you doing?
Igor: Well I couldn't be happier doing this interview. You're somebody I admire a lot; study as well. Although our email styles are slightly different, basically I learn a lot from what you do. I can truly appreciate an expert when I see one. Thank you for taking the time to sit down with us and dispense some valuable knowledge.
Andre: You're more than welcome. That just goes to show that there is no one way that's the right way. You can pretty much do anything and it's going to work. It's cool that everyone is doing their own version of whatever.
Igor: Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely; you're so right. Everybody is looking around for that one big secret and one big strategy; that one thing that works. Well there is no one thing, you're absolutely correct. Speaking of which, a lot of people reach out to me and they ask me, & quot;Igor, how long do you recommend for a follow-up sequence to be?"
Andre: Sure, five years! Yeah. I do follow-up sequences more than I do broadcasts. In fact, probably about 5% of all the emails I send out is probably broadcasts and all the rest are just automated follow-up sequences or autoresponders, depending on the system you're using. That's my preferred way of doing it. If they're brand new, they'll start off short, so let's say one week. I'll hammer out one week's worth of emails and then I'll just keep adding to that over time. Over time, it'll turn into one month. It'll turn into two months. It'll turn into a few months. Again, it depends on if it's a prospect Soap Oprah sequence. I call it the Soap Oprah sequence, [3:00] the actual follow-up sequence because of the way that I create them and write them. Yeah, if it's a prospect one, it'll typically be a bit shorter. If it's a customer one, I'll pretty much keep adding to it, literally forever. They never end up being years long; they typically end up being a few months long. That's pretty much how I do it.
The reason why my prospect ones are shorter than my customer ones is because not 100% of prospects are going to buy. That's just the reality of life.
We're never going to convert everybody. There's a point of diminishing returns where there's energy and time that you put into adding on to the prospect sequence is not going to have a great return, in terms of people coming over to the other side. My prospect ones are normally about a month long, sometimes longer, which allows me to have the best shot at bonding with that new prospect that typically doesn't necessarily know who I am and what I represent and more about me and how I can help them solve the problems that they have.
Igor: Does it mean that they stop opening emails after three days?
Andre: No. It's just that that sequence that I pre-script out will typically have an end date of around about a month, sometimes longer. That doesn't mean that they won't receive broadcast emails and stuff like that. It's just that that actual sequence where I tell a story over that chunk of time, it gets to a point where there is no value in continuing that much longer because -
Igor: Yeah because a story has a middle - sorry, has a beginning, a middle and an end so it has to end sometime.
Andre: Yeah. Also, those prospects on that list, for whatever reason they've decided that perhaps I'm not the person that can solve their problem, or they're not into my shit. At that point, they've, kind of, opted out, right. It's impossible to convert 100% of people, but I try my best to convert and speak to the people that represent my ideal customers. I'm not really cared about the rest, which is why I tell my stories and I write my emails in a certain way because there's a certain type of person that I want to attract. And there's a certain type of person that I want to repel. Ultimately, people are going to add themselves to my list. They may not necessarily be my or represent my deal customers. I'm okay with them, over a period of time, fading out and that's cool with me. That allows me to have small lists that are super-targeted and hyper-responsive.
Igor: Oh yeah, absolutely. I've been reading a lot about you in the previous couple of days of doing this. I've read somewhere that you've been getting EPCs the size of $105. This means you made over $100 per click out of your list. That's just insane!
Andre: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes when you do things right and you [6:00] hit the right nerve, EPCs can go pretty bananas. I was an affiliate for somebody else's launch and it went pretty well, and yeah, I got over $100 EPC.
Igor: Very cool, very cool. You're saying that the list is actually not really a list but a filtering mechanism. A filter that allows you to say, okay, if you're not my ideal customer, you can get off the list, and if you are, this is where you go and buy my shit, basically. You use the prospect list as a way to filter out theprospects that you don't want and further bond and influence the people that you do want to influence.
Andre: Yeah, exactly. I guess an analogy would be, I don't know, I'm sure you watched that movie "The Matrix", everybody has.
Igor: Oh no, is that a book? Is it based on a true story?"
Andre: In "The Matrix" where Morpheus speaks to Neo and he gives him - you can have the red pull or the blue pull and you can go down or you can just wake up one morning and everything's back to normal again. I guess that's what the prospect sequence is. People that are into my stuff and feel that I can solve their problems come across the other side and they become a customer of mine. Then I nurture them and we go down this path together. I treat them amazingly well and expose them to other things that they have perhaps never even considered before. Where the prospects have a choice; they have the red pull or the blue pull and some of them take it and some of them don't, which is normal. Yes, it's like a filtering sequence, and I treat my prospects really, really well. I send them data sequence and I give them the best emails and the best stuff. At the end of the day, at some point some will convert and others won't. I focus on the ones that will and I focus on attracting those people. I say and I write and I do things in a certain way that's going to repel a certain type of person.
That's what those prospect sequences do. As well as my landing pages and my website that actually lead them to the point where they can get on to my email list, those things are also filtering mechanisms. I have a lot of filters in place, which is why by the time somebody becomes a customer, they're pretty [08:18].
Igor: Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm in full agreement with you when it comes to repelling people. I think my focus in the marketing that I do is more on repelling people than it is on attracting them. The reason I believe it works is because you don't project desperation. I see a lot of marketers out there, all they want to do is just sell, sell, sell, pitch, pitch, pitch. That, sort of, projects this vibe of, oh he's desperate to sell me, therefore I don't want to be with him. Just like the vibe I used to project on women where I was desperate to get women, therefore they would punish me by not giving in. How do you feel about that? How do you – [9:00]
Andre: Yeah, you can tell straightway if someone's an amateur because their sales page is trying to talk to everybody. It's trying to convert every single person that lands on that page. It's the one solution that can solve everyone's problems and fix everybody. That stuff doesn't work. Typically, to make that stuff work it has to be super-harpy and over the top with promises and all sorts of shit that's never going to work. It doesn't operate that way. Obviously those sorts of pages and things are all over the place and they're always going to be there. They're never going to go away, which is cool because it makes life for people like us a lot easier. We get to filter people and create marketing experiences that attract the best people and filter out those people that are after the whole easy button thing. That's cool but it's not here.
Igor: Nice, nice. Here's a question that I believe everyone would love to hear an answer to. What would you say is the value-to- selling ratio in your emails?
Andre: Yeah, so I may not give the answer that you're expecting. The way that I do it, I don't necessarily rig my stuff where it's, let's say, free, free, free, sell, free, free, free, sell or sell in every email. At the end of the day, I'll write in a certain way that every single email is essentially an opportunity to pull people towards you. Again, I do it in a way that it's not selling. I'm trying to explain this in a way that makes sense.
Igor: Well, I've heard about this concept from Russell Bronson where when you sell, it is value in itself.
Andre: Yeah, yes. For the first time in my life - I'm putting out now some stuff that I've been doing for over a decade now where I'm going to be teaching people how I do this stuff. It's sometimes a bit difficult to explain because it's the way that you say something that's not overt that - where you just drop little nuggets here and there. At the same time, you're always delivering amazing value. Whatever you're is of value to the other person. There's things that they can take from that and nod their head and it's helping them, but it's in the way that you say it. It's pulling them towards you because there's always that sense that there's more behind the curtain.
When you do it that way, you don't have to sell per se because of the way that you are saying these things. At any point when you decide to put a buy link in or allow somebody the opportunity to make a purchase, those guys are chomping at the bit to get whatever, right. If you go to [my tiny] little businesses, prospect list, things that one plays out for a little over a month, and it's a story that plays out over that period of time. I think in pretty much every email [12:00] in the PS is an opportunity for people to buy and move across the prospect customer threshold.
If you watch that prospect sequence play out, it's not sales-y at all, it just tells a story in the main body of every single email and then it's just in the PS, by the way, if you're ready to come across, blah, blah, blah, here's the link. That's how I do it, typically.
Igor: Alright. The way I'm seeing it - okay, the strategy behind giving value in every email as you sell, for me, - I don't think necessarily what you're doing but I'm just expressing what I'm doing, just for the sake of our listeners getting both perspectives. I try to sell ideas. I try to talk about ideas and not "how to" content. I try to talk about concepts and beliefs and not about specific marketing strategies, which allows me to give value. People perceive it as value; I perceive it as sharing what works, then linked to an offer at the end of every email. Whether that offer is to listen to my podcast. Whether it is just a [mental] application to get more traffic or pick up a product of some sort. To me, selling the beliefs first and then offering the products and services to buy is what has been working for the last couple of years.
Igor: How do you feel - you keep on mentioning stories. Obviously you're a great storyteller. Why stories?
Andre: Because people can resonate with stories. It's funny because I have a whole training course that I've done with a partner of mine, Michael Haig, who's been in the Hollywood movie business for, I don't know, 30+ years. People buy that because they want to know how to tell a story. It's funny, you go to any bar or any meet-up when you're with friends and the only thing that gets spoken about in that little circle of friends are stories, right. People are telling you what would happen the day before, what happened the week before, whatever. That's a story. As soon as people sit in front of their computer screen and they're staring at a blank page, everything just goes to shit. They just forget that the day before-
Igor: Writer's block!
Andre: Yeah. A day before at the barbecue with their friends, they were all telling stories. They were doing it. Their friends were doing it. Everybody was doing it. Everybody knows how to tell a story. A story has a character or a hero, there's a desire or a goal, and then there's conflict. Conflict is the one element that has to exist in every story that's worth telling. Conflict is something that's gone wrong. When the shit hits the fan, something's gone pear shaped, those essentially are the three elements of any story. Anybody can tell a story.
You don't have to get some crazy training course that's five hours long. You can if you want, [15:00] but at the end of the day, people know how to tell stories. That's essentially what I do using my emails. I just pepper in all these stories. I use story as the lead-in to whatever I'm going to say and then I just tie it in. There's loads of different ways to do that I'm not a natural storyteller; I'm dyslexic. I'm a slow reader. I can't spell. I'm a hopeless case, and if I can do it, I promise you, anybody can do it. I'm 42 now and I only started reading books when I was 35, so a few years ago. At that point where I started to read fiction books, my ability to tell a story got better. It was my turning point. Up until that point, for the first 35 years of my life, all through school, all that stuff, I figured out ways not to read a book because I was just a bad reader. I still am; I just read slowly. Now, I'm reading fiction every single day, and by doing that, you just get better at telling stories. The better I get at telling stories, the more money I make. It makes sense that I just keep reading fiction and telling the stories as best as I can.
Igor: Why does it work? Why do people want to buy after they read a story, or as they read a story?
Andre: Well if people can connect to a story that's - stories don't come across as you trying to sell them - sales-y thing. They just hear the story about something happened to this person and they have this desire, and that desire obviously ideally needs to match with the desire of your reader. Then there's all the sit happen. Something went horribly wrong and now you've got people's attention. Then you can string that out over multiple emails.
You can have a cliffhanger at the end of the first email, where you're just about to tell them what happened and you've had to end the email. You say it in a way that, don't worry, I'll tie this up tomorrow. By creating those pieces of tension, it keeps people engaged and wanting to read your emails. Yeah, it does work really well and it's not difficult to do.
Igor: Yeah, as long as you're keeping it conversational. As long as you imagine - it's not like you're writing to a bunch of people. I can just imagine that email marketing or copywriting was me writing to a stadium full of people and everybody's going to sit there and judge me. The moment I shifted my point of view to, say, sitting down with someone you know who doesn't judge you and just having a dialog and that's how I write my emails today, just very conversational. Whether I tell a story or not, usually that results in a great response because no one wants to ready the Declaration of Independence anymore. People want to be entertained, people want to be understood. The way we communicate, you're absolutely right, we communicate through stories. That's how we've been communicating [18:00] since the dawn of time. That's how we pass wisdom through our generations. This is what we do. Not using stories in your selling, sales letters, sales videos, emails, blog posts, whatever is, I think sinful, when it comes to email marketing.
Igor: Okay, alright, cool. What would you say is the number one mistake you see people make when it comes to email marketing, people who are just starting now building their lists and blasting those lists?
Andre: Well the biggest mistake is not sending out any emails. I think that's the worst mistake of all. There's many people that I've encountered that have an email list but they've never sent a fricking email. They have taken all the time to get somebody on their list and their too scared to say anything.
Igor: Why do people do that?
Andre: I think they're just scared of selling to people. Again, this isn't about selling; this is about reframing what you're doing in your head. The way that I see it is I'm helping to solve problems. It's my job as the [fiduciary] of my audience is to help them solve their problems. I do that by, I have products obviously, and I know that those products are a solution to many of their problems. In many cases, my products aren't the best solution for certain people. That's when I recommend other products, as an affiliate. When you think about it like that, it allows you to not be super-sales- y because all you're trying to do is to help them solve a problem. You then can say it in a nice story way and it's easy to then create a lead into this other solution. Sell that as an outcome instead of, don't buy X, Y, Z because I think it's amazing, but by the way I haven't actually [19:54] yet.
Igor: That's boring too. When you just say, you know, this product is amazing, off the hook, it can make you rich, go buy it. That's just boring. No one's going to fall for it anymore. People are sophisticated consumers today. You have to do a better job than just sending out an email that says, buy this. So many people do that. Even more so, you're absolutely correct. I talk to people all the time and they tell me, "Hey, I've invested $5,000 into [Solas Web's] traffic and now I've got a list of 300 subscribers and I'm not making money." I'm like, okay so how often do you mail them? "Oh, I haven't mailed them in a month." Why? "I don't know. I didn't know what to email them." Well by now they've probably forgot about you so you might as well delete them.
Yeah, absolutely agree with you that people are very timing and just afraid to put themselves out there. Do you think it has anything to do with their self-image? Or all of it has to do with what you mentioned, having the twisted idea that sales is scamming people, manipulating people or making people do things they don't want to do? [21:00]
Andre: I think in almost every case the person with the list isn't aware of who's on their list, those people, their desires, needs and wants. People assume they know. Like you mentioned, somebody who's spent $1,000 and they've got 300 people on their email list; they don't know anything about those people. I think they may think they do. They may think that that persons like them and maybe just wants to make some money.
When you really dig deeper and you reach out to those people, and you ask them what's your biggest concern? You can send out an email that's one line long that just says, what's your biggest stumbling block right now? Hit Reply and let me know. People don't do that because it's not selling. It's not selling the next shiny object. You don't have to do that because now you're going to get a percentage of those 300 people hitting Reply and getting back to you and telling you some of their story. Now you're going to have a far deeper understanding of who these people are.
Next time, when you do come to sell something or you next email when you're just chitchatting, you now have got these reference points that you can talk about. Now those emails are going to come across as far more sincere and that rapport that you're going to create with that person, and your audience as a whole, is going to be so much more deeper.
I remember surveying these elderly people in the weight loss space a while back. I didn't know that much about them, other than the fact that they were over the age of 55 years old, so I had a whole bunch of assumptions in my head about them. Until I actually asked and put myself out there and got responses back, I'd got no real idea. Some of the responses that I got back blew my mind to pieces.
People say that I don't want to die because they're elderly, they're sickly they've got grandkids. The most important thing was I don't want to die and that's why I'm doing this. When you hear that, it's like, fuck, okay. Now I get this. Now I know what to say to move them in my direction. I can help them solve their problem.
Igor: Isn't that the problem that you see everywhere, in every piece of bad marketing. It's not about the fancy words, it might not even be about the stories and how well you tell a story. It has more to do with whether or not you understand who you're talking to. If I come out and I start talking about Solas to somebody who has no idea of what solo ads are, why they need to be even thinking about solo ads to advance their business. They don't have the clear understanding that my target prospect does not know. I can say whatever; they're not going to listen to me. Or what if they're worried about, like you said, the elderly people worried about death and not about weight. Talking to them about weight isn't going to do the job. You have to get so deep into their psyche that they almost need to feel like you know them better than they know themselves. [24:00]
Andre: Which is true because in many cases when you this, you extract stuff that they may not even be consciously thinking about. They aren't walking around thinking, I don't want to die, I don't want to die, I don't want to die. They may be thinking a slightly different story. When you really dig deep and you ask them that question and they think about it, then they give you the right answer. It's like, ah, okay, now I know how to frame a certain message that's going to resonate with them and ultimately help them so they can be with their grandkids for longer.
Igor: Yeah. It's circling back to the whole issue of you guys not emailing the list or not mailing the list often enough or not knowing what to write about. If you know your prospect, if you have the clear understanding that the prospect got on your list because they have a problem that they want to solve and they see you as a potential solution or a solution provider, then why would you have any doubts about emailing them? You didn't make them get on your list. They got on your list voluntarily so you might as well send them a bunch of emails.
Andre: Yeah, exactly.
Igor: It just makes perfect sense. Alright, well, Andre, we're just about to wrap up, any last piece of advice for beginner email marketers?
Andre: Yeah, just to understand that the people on the other end that receive the emails are human beings like ourself. They're not a number or a metric; they're a human being with feelings and desires and needs. The more you can understand what those are, the better it's going to be for everyone. The more you can help them, the more money you're going to end up making. It's win-win.
Until you know and feel that there's human beings on the other end, then it's just a person sending out emails to these numbers. Then metrics comes back, either you make a sale or you don't make a sale, and that's not the best way to think about this stuff.
Igor: That just doesn't work. Guys, listen to Andre. These are really people; they have feelings and emotions and they make emotional decisions. Appeal to that, study your market, and get to know them better than they know themselves.
Andre, I'm going to plug you. That's the official plugging stage of the
interview, where I tell my audience to go to andrechaperon.com and/or autorespondermadness.com to pick up your best-selling Autoresponder Madness course, which has been pretty much - Perry Belcher says it's the best email marketing education you can get. Perry Belcher knows a thing or two about marketing.
Got to autorespondermadness.com or visit Andre's blog at andrechaperon.com. You've just started blogging.
Andre: Yeah. I've not been blogging for nine years, or seven years, I forget now. It's been for a while, so I've started up again.
Igor: Nice, nice. Well I actually enjoy your posts to be honest. I too hate to ride the London subway; I'd much rather take the cab [27:00] and now I'm going to use Uber because it turns out it's cheaper. Thank you for that piece of advice. Again, thank you so much for doing this, Andre; I know you're busy reading fiction, writing Soap Oprah. I truly appreciate your time. Thank you so much and until next time.
Andre: It's a [big pleasure].
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