Braveheart School of Marketing

I spent the first 2 years online chasing bright shiny objects.

I was a sucker for anything new and exciting.

And if it claimed to solve all my problems overnight, all the better!

Obviously, and you know this, none of that crap ever worked.

So it got me thinking – what does work?

If the new shiny stuff never produces results, perhaps I’m missing a puzzle piece here. And if I can solve this mystery, can I guarantee success?

What I discovered was stomach twisting.

It had a lot to do with fear of success, fear of failure and the primal emotional drivers which dictate our decisions.

The good news…

I just had to tweak my approach ever so slightly to start seeing results.

Discover what I found and exactly how I succeeded in the all new List Building Lifestyle.


This program is brought to you by the

Hi, my name is Igor Kheifets and this is the List Building Lifestyle, the only podcast
which delivers cutting edge conversion strategies from the online trenches straight to
your earbuds. Download the transcript of today’s episode and all future episodes at I also invite you to grab a free copy of “The Wealthy
List Builder’s Survival Guide” at and now
once again it’s time to claim your List Building Lifestyle.

Jonathan: Welcome back to another edition of List Building Lifestyle. Here I have
the Daddy of List Builders, himself, Mr. Igor Kheifets. What is up, my man?

Igor: [laughter] The Daddy of List Builders, man? Big Daddio of List Builders.

Jonathan: [laughter] You’re going to have all kinds of new nicknames by the time
we are done here, right?

Igor: You know man, I remember someone saying claim a title like in influence
or persuasion, they should claim a title like John Carlton is “The World’s Most
Ripped Off Copywriter” and Ben’s got “The World’s Leading Authority On
Email”, you’re “The Podcasting Authority”, etc. But “The Big Daddy of List
Building” even for me that’s a bit over the top.

Jonathan: [laughter] Come on wear the crown proudly.

Igor: Thank you. [laughter]

Jonathan: So Igor, what do you have for us today buddy?

Igor: Well, what I want to talk about is this phenomenon which I spotted which
of course I was guilty of myself back in the day when I was starting out where
everybody is looking for the amazing new thing that’s going to create instant
lasting results. However, everyone seems to ignore the stuff that has been field
tested for decades and even centuries which actually works. In other words, in
search of success in life and business, people often neglect the ancient teachings
in favor of bright shiny objects and bright shiny methods so they end up chasing
whatever is new and whatever is fresh. However that is one of the reasons that
they end up frustrated, why they get stuck without results because usually about
99% of the time the new exciting shiny stuff doesn’t really work.

Jonathan: Why do you suppose people are always looking for that new stuff?

Igor: Honestly, man, I don't know but all I do know is everyone wants
instant lasting change and that seems to never happen. I still haven’t come
across a solution that creates instant change like overnight.

Jonathan: I got one.

Igor: Seriously?

Jonathan: Yeah, death.

Igor: Oh yeah, [laughter]

Jonathan: [laughter] You want instant change, there you go.

Igor: Now was that going to positive change, eh? So anyway everyone is busy
chasing new exciting things because it really takes work to get in with the
program, if you will. It really takes work to stick to something and maybe it
has to do with the fear of failure, maybe the fear of success but it’s easier to
start a brand new thing. It’s easier to start a brand new project. It’s easier to
abandon something that you’re working on and move on to something new
and exciting. I see a lot even for myself right now when it comes to reading
like my Kindle is bursting with unread books however I keep buying more
and kind of abandoning books midway through in favor of the new ones.
I’m not sure why I do that.

Jonathan: But I’m going to give you credit because at least you started the books.
There’s a lot of people out there, veracious readers and people that I’m sure we
both have studied, you don’t have to read every bit of a book, all you have to
do is get at least one thing out of that book and put it down. So if you’re at
least cracking open the book and reading it that’s a step in the right direction,
in my opinion.

Igor: Yeah, most books really do come down to just one idea unless we are
talking about really dense books like Dan Kennedy’s stuff. For example Dan
Kennedy like gives you a gold nugget every 5 to 7 pages but most books do
come down to one idea and my mentor Tom Beal actually has this – he says,
“Make the book your bitch.” So often he doesn’t read the entire book, all he
needs is just one big idea which the book tries to deliver and he just moves
on to the next one and I didn’t know that when I started working with him but
later when I kind of realized the guy’s reading like 5 to 7 books at a time, I’m
like what the hell, like what’s his secret. He kind of disclosed the whole “make
the book your bitch” tip.

Jonathan: That sounds like a new info product.

Igor: [laughter] Yeah. I almost wanted to say “make the list your bitch” but
then I was like no that doesn’t feel right. It’s going to go against what we’re
preaching here on this show.

Jonathan: Yeah, man. So people are getting caught up in bright shiny objects
and I think it’s something interesting that you said there that I just want to
circle back to for just one second is fear of failure and also fear of success so
is fear of success a real thing?

Igor: Well, actually it is. I have experienced fear success several times in my
life and it really comes down to what’s going to happen if this actually works
like people want to quit their day job and start an online business. What if the
business actually works? Will I be able to deal with the responsibilities? Will I
be able to let go of my job? Will I be able to kind of handle the lifestyle of
making money while traveling? Fear of success is a big thing often times just
as big as the fear of failure because again the responsibility of carrying that
weight on your shoulders and having no more excuses is a big one and people
find it tough to deal with it psychologically.

Jonathan: No kidding. Just let that sit for a second, fear of success is a thing.
[laughter] You can’t win in life. So Igor why then are people skipping out on
the old stuff like the stuff that you and I have studied, ancient stuff from the
1900s, why are people ignoring that stuff that has been proven to work over
the last 100 years?

Igor: I think that happens because people don’t get this one thing which says
technology changes, industries change but human nature doesn’t change. In
other words when it comes to business, when it comes to marketing, when it
comes to selling, every single dollar you make will come from someone else’s
pocket from another person’s pocket. So if all it comes down to is human nature
then that stuff did not change for centuries, for centuries. So why look for the
next bright shiny object if people are exactly as they have been for the last
couple of hundred years or maybe couple thousand years. I was watching
“Braveheart” with my wife the other day with Mel Gibson and it happens in
1500s or 1400s when England is fighting Scotland for independence or vice
versa. Scotland is uprising against England. It really comes down to the most
basic human emotions and most basic human desires. In fact, the same desire
that drove the Mel Gibson character, William Wallace to kind of rise up against
the tyranny of the English. It is very similar to leads guys like you and me to
rise up against the tyranny of a boss or a limitation of a paycheck. It’s the
hatred; it’s all the negative emotion. It’s the inability to be a free man or a
free woman. It’s all the same shit. Only back in the day, the way they claimed
their freedom was by killing other people, and the way we do it today is just
making a lot of money.

Jonathan: [laughter] That’s great, man. So I’m thinking about this and I’m
wondering if maybe the people who are making all the money are the ones that
realize its human nature, basic human needs and they are putting that into their
marketing and preying on the people that are unaware and distracting them from
what really matters.

Igor: Well it’s a really tough one. When it comes to marketing you can do it
several different ways. We do talk a lot about like what’s the best way to
approach a target market and often times it’s not about being factual; it’s more
about appealing to those emotions. We have spoken several times about how
I’m driven pretty much 90% of the time by negative emotion. It’s impossible to
get me to do anything by waving the carrot in front of me. You have to use a
stick. So when it comes to marketing sure there is a bunch of marketing out
there which is really, really unethical however at the same time I believe you
have to get creative about overcoming the barriers that people place in the way
of making a decision which ends up changing their lives. So for instance, I got
this back problem. I got a problem in my lower back and it really; really got bad
in the last couple of weeks so my friends kept telling me go see a professional
like a chiropractor. Now I didn’t want to go. Why? I don't know. Maybe I
was lazy, maybe I was afraid he was going to twist my back and break it, maybe
I was afraid of the diagnosis which is going to be like a life long condition which
leads to paralysis or something. It’s your back, it’s your spine. Thing can get
really bad if you’re not careful. It took me 2 weeks of just being in excruciating
pain and often times I had to work lying down on the sofa because I couldn’t sit
or stand at all. I just spent days just lying on the sofa working because I couldn’t
do anything else. It was this pain in addition to my inability of moving that lead
me to finally giving in and going to that doctor. Now I realize that if I were that
doctor, if I were the chiropractor and I had to convince patients to come and see
me or to pay for treatment or do the exercise which he insists you got to do like
an hour of yoga-type of exercise strengthening your spine. I would use fear
every step of the way. I would not be a positive doctor.

Jonathan: [laughter]

Igor: I would be painting pictures of how if you don’t handle this right now,
2 years from now you’re going to be in a wheelchair. Or if you don’t handle
this right now, you’re going to lose your ability to move around. Or if you don’t
handle this right now, you’re not going to be able to pick up your kid two months
from now and throw her up in the air which I like doing. So these are the kinds of
things that would lead to any patient finally doing something about their
condition because if all you talk about is wouldn’t want to never feel pain again.
It’s not the same thing at least not for me. You have to tie this pain to being a
bad father. You have to tie this pain to being a bad husband. You have tie this
pain into being like 30% of the kind of the human being you can be, etc, etc, etc.
You know what I mean, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Yeah.

Igor: Like you have to take it deeper than just back pain.

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah. The thing is really it depends on the marketer and
whether they are ethical or not and let’s stick with the doctor example, it’s
really his duty to improve your life so whatever he had to do to get you there
is what he has to do because that’s going make your life better. So the ethical
doctor is just trying to improve your situation so I see what you’re saying and
I know that you are an ethical marketer that’s why we get along so well. So
what would you say to people just starting out? There is a new Pinterest course
out. There’s an Instagram course. Is that where they start or where would you
tell them to start? Igor: You know what. I would not go for the bright shiny new
things. So the strategy they are attempting is less than 2 or 3 years old I would
not waste time not because it doesn’t work but because it’s not proven as a
more established strategy is. For example, list building has been working for
like two decades now.

Jonathan: Yeah.

Igor: I think the first e-book or the first list that was registered in ’95 or ’96
so that’s proven. Like 20 years is a proven strategy not to mention that it
actually goes all the way back to direct mail which has been around since
the beginning of the 20th century. So going with something like list building,
you can’t lose and sure the technology changes and email filters change and
this and that; however the overall strategy is still the same. Get them into
your world start communicating regularly through this media and allow them
to form this connection with you and eventually become a client through this
constant consistent communication.

Jonathan: What you’re talking about when I think about it like I’ve been doing
interviews with guys like Joe from Agora and these are companies that make
multi-hundreds of millions of dollars and they are doing the same thing. They are
getting a list together; they have an email list and a direct mailing list. They are
selling front end products and in fact, Joe told me that they were willing to take
a lose for 6 months on the front end product because they know that at the 6
month mark they go into the profit and then they continue selling on the back
end so it’s a basic formula; grow the list, nurture the list and sell to the list and
this is hundreds of millions of dollars this company is making and it’s different
tools but the same concept.

Igor: Yeah and obviously anyone who starts out online does not have the luxury
of having like 6 months to stay in the red light like some of the bigger companies
like Guthy Renker that sells ProActiv so they stay in the red for 8 months and so
you got to have really deep pockets for that however you should expect to treat
this as a marathon, right it’s just not a sprint, this business. It’s a marathon. You
can’t be looking for the next big hit; you can’t be looking for the next
instantaneous change overnight because these usually don’t exist. Anything that
lasts is a process that you create over the course of time and you then you spend
a lot of time maintaining it as well which is not an element that people don’t quite
understand. For some reason, everyone thinks that you hit the homerun and then
you just sit back and relax as if there is no more work afterwards.

Jonathan: More like a series of base hits if you’re lucky.

Igor: Yeah, you got to get in the field. You got to get out there start swinging
every single day. That’s how it works. I love this Gary Vaynerchuk quote, he said,
people want to stay indoors like rest on Saturdays or something and for him
Saturday is a Monday. He doesn’t care what day of the week it is; he’s grinding
and hustling every single day. Now think how profound that is coming from the
guy who’s like an ancient investor and creator of like tons of best selling
products, an author, etc like most people who admire guys like Gary Vaynerchuk
are not as willing to work as hard as he does. They just like the idea of the
attachment. They just keep themselves attached to what he preaches but they
really never do anything about it, do they?

Jonathan: Yeah.

Igor: Which takes us back to the fear of failure and the fear of success, again these
are really deep concepts which we are not really able to crack open the show but
they do exist and they are not to be ignored.

Jonathan: No kidding, man. So Igor anything else you want to say as we’re wrapping
up or do you want to tease what you got coming up for next time?

Igor: Well, I just want to circle back to the big idea of this episode which is don’t
go looking for the next shiny object, don’t waste your time, don’t waste your
money seeking the new thing all the time, keep growing but not because you feel
that you feel like you’re running late, like you’re late to the show and that there is
a new thing coming out which I got to get on but instead educate yourself on the
principles and strategies and the methods that have been field tested for decades
and centuries, not on the stuff that just came out yesterday. Right? And once
you have established yourself, once you got your income, once you got your
client base, once you’re settled and you’re secure then you can go and
experiment with the new stuff but until then you really have to be careful with
your time and attention because it’s easy to get sucked into this whirlpool of
bright shiny objects.

Jonathan: Yeah, there is something to be said about maximizing the stuff that is
working and as entrepreneurs I believe I’ve been guilty of it and I’m sure you’ve
been guilty of it we get bored kind of quickly and we don’t maximize what’s
already working before we jump on to something else so I’m glad that you brought
that up, Igor. What do you have coming up for us next time?

Igor: Next time, I have the pleasure of interviewing Tom Beal, my mentor,
my coach, good friend, one of my best friends and someone whose spoke
on stage in different countries, wrote a book. He has been the JV Manager
for Rich Schefren; he worked closely with Jay Abraham. The guy knows pretty
much everyone in the industry and he has been around for 20 years. So he is
just a walking treasure chest of knowledge and for anyone that’s trying to make
heads or tails of this thing, home-based business a success, Tom Beal is the
messiah as far as I’m concerned. So I’m excited to be giving you guys the
Tom Beal episode in a bit.

Jonathan: Wow! I’m just wondering what took you so long to get him on the show.
Can’t wait for that! So that is a wrap of another List Building Lifestyle. We will be
back in your earbuds next time.

Thanks for listening to The List Building Lifestyle Show, make sure to subscribe on iTunes
or Google. Play to never miss an episode because who knows just one conversion tactic
we share on the show might double your list and double your business. Download the
transcript of today’s episode and all future episodes at and
don’t forget to claim your complimentary copy of “The Wealthy List Builder’s Survival
Guide” at . This is Igor Kheifets until next time we talk, have a good one.

This is the

Who Is Igor Kheifets

Igor Kheifets is the 3rd highest-earning super-affiliate in the internet marketing niche.

Igor’s 2-step system has helped him consistently rank as the highest-earning and the highest-converting (measured in commissions earned per click) for industry’s leading vendors including but not limited to Matt Bacak, John Crestani and Anthony Morrison.

Igor boiled down success in affiliate marketing to a set of predictable easy steps anyone can take to generate commissions.


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