NLP eMail Marketing Secrets With Jonathan Levi Mizel

The #1 problem with list building for most people isn’t getting the leads.

Or even setting up an autoresponder.

It’s not knowing what to email their list.

This is huge for people.

Almost every email marketer struggles to come with engaging “content” which gets the job done.

Here’s why this happens…

If you’re anything like the vast mob of email marketers, you think of your list as a list. A bunch of email addresses in your Aweber account. A statistic.

You don’t think of these as real people.

That… or the complete opposite.

You’re humanizing the crap out of your list and you seek their approval.

Will they like me if I say this?

Will they get hurt if I don’t say that?

Both schools of thought are dead wrong.

Find out how to never run out of things to say to your list.


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Hi, my name is Igor Kheifets and this is the List Building Lifestyle, the only podcast which delivers cutting edge conversion strategies from the online trenches straight to your earbuds. Download the transcript of today’s episode and all future episodes at I also invite you to grab a free copy of “The Wealthy List Builder’s Survival Guide” at and now once again it’s time to claim your List Building Lifestyle.
Igor: ?Welcome back to List Building Lifestyle with your host Igor Kheifets, and today I'm hosting Jonathan Mizel. Now, unless you've been living under a rock, you know that Jonathan is the guy other gurus, a word we don't really like on the show, call when they need help with scaling their businesses. Now he's been making money online since the birth of commercial web in '92, so the guy's definitely old. All right?
Jonathan: ?[laughter]
Igor: ?[laughter] And he's also an expert at generating ridiculous amounts of highly targeted traffic, specifically Jonathan loves to talk about email marketing, list building, and product launches, which seems to be his forte, because this guy grew a list of two million subscribers in less than 12 months, and he shares exactly how he does that in his latest program called “E-mail Traffic Academy”, which you can find out more about at Jonathan, what is up my friend?
Jonathan: ? Igor, it's such an honor to be here, man. Really, really great, thank you for having me on the show.
Igor: ?Well it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure because, I mean, you're truly living the lifestyle. That list building lifestyle that we all talk about. So can you paint us a picture on exactly what you see right now around you?
Jonathan: ? Well, I'm looking out the window. I live on an island called Maui, which is in the state of Hawaii which is in the very middle of the Pacific Ocean, and so I'm looking at my window up at the top of the volcano and there's a bunch of telescopes and scientific stuff going up there, but it's a beautiful clear day. I can't see the weather from this particular room but, we have beautiful beaches here, wonderful sunsets and all kinds of, it's just this is a wonderful, wonderful place to live.
Igor: ?Well sounds like you're having a blast. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean now you're making me jealous, because I live in the desert.
Jonathan: ? [laughter]
Igor: ?? That's all I see, just sand. [laughter]
Jonathan: ? [laughter] I can see a little sand, but it's next to the ocean.
Igor: ?Oh well that's cool man. Honestly, I mean, isn't that what people think about when they think of freedom? It's the ocean, the beach. Living on the beach and basically spending your days and just strolling down and the water tickling your feet or, something like that?
Jonathan: ? That's right! You know a lot of people get into business with a big idea of making a lot of money. And I certainly like to make money, it's important to me, but my driving force has always been freedom. The freedom is not to just sit around, although sometimes I do just sit around and, you know, lounge in the sun, but the freedom to do anything I want. Whether it's going out and take a walk on the beach, or take a drive up the volcano. We have all kinds of trails and wonderful hiking and good nature opportunities here, and so that to me is why I do what I do. It's not to have a big pile of money in the bank. It's so that I can cover my bills, and of course, put money aside. That money is important, but the most important thing is what it buys, which is time freedom. Not just freedom, but time freedom. Ability to take a vacation, or the ability to just take the day off. That's why I got into it, and that's why I've stayed with it now for 24 years, I guess.
Igor: ?Well, you definitely has the right business model because, list building and email marketing does allow you to do that, and you're also an expert at pay traffic and scaling that, of course, effectively, which means you have lots of leverage going on your business right now.
Jonathan: ? That's right. It was early on that I learned those skills, and I'm really glad that I learned those skills about monetizing my list and getting traffic on demand. There was a time actually, when I decided to take a break and I took a three year vacation. My wife had no idea what I did. When I met her, we were just dating and she said, "What do you do?" and I said, "I don't know, I mail my list couple times, three times a month and let's go to Spain, and let's go to a New York, and let's go to Honolulu, and let's go to San Diego." She didn't get it. I did start working again back about five, six years ago.
Igor: ? ?What, the money ran out? [laughter]
Jonathan: ? No, the money didn't really run out, but you know, you have other things that you want. I said earlier, my wife is an architect and an interior designer, and she works on these multi-million dollar houses and really... You know, she is just fantastic designer. So, I'm like, "Man I better make some money so we can get a house." [laughter] And live in it. Instead of just renting a little, this place here and that place there. So I put down some stronger roots and sometimes that does require a bit more capital than just the Mad Money of mailing your list once or twice a month.
Igor: ?You know, but listening to you it almost sounds like you can push a button and money will appear. Now, it can't be possibly this easy, and I'm sure there has been a lot of work that you put in to make it happen. But do share with us and our listeners like perhaps the brief version of how you ended up becoming a master list builder.
Jonathan: ? Well, in the very beginning I was an insurance broker and it must have been 1991, 1992. I wanted to get in on something early. I wanted to get in on something where there wasn't so much competition, and I looked at all the opportunities and insurance was fairly well established, and real estate was established, and advertising was established. There was all the stuff that was established, and a friend of mine brought me to a seminar, an internet seminar. I first heard about an auto responder, which they back then called a mailbot, and we sent a piece of email to the White House, and like five minutes later we got a response from Dee Dee Myers, who was Bill Clinton's press secretary at the time. I raised my hand and said, "Did she respond to us?" and the guy said, "No, that was her mailbot, it just automatically responded." Everybody was like, "Ooo, aah" And my response was, "Hell, I wonder what else we could put in there besides a 'Thank you for e-mailing' me message." [laughter] So I started to think about how we would create these mail, an auto responders and over time... I mean I started building my list back, I think the very first names I got when real email came out was maybe '93, '94 and we were doing stuff on AOL and CompuServe. I started building my list really early, and honestly, some of those same people who subscribed in the very early days, are still subscribers. The reason is because I take care of them. We talked earlier about how people are afraid to mail their list, and if you don't have anything to say to your list, you should be afraid. But, I promise you, if you think about it, you have something to send to your list. You have some story, or some engaging tale, or some content, something that's going to help you. The truth is, is that when you have a list, you have your responsibility to treat them right, and to give them good information, and not spam them, and to have a remove link and all that stuff. That's why they opted into your list. Your real responsibility is to engage them and to create a relationship with them. So, doing that early, that's what really helped me out. Anybody listening to this now is like, maybe you're just building your list, you've got hundred people. Talked to some guy last week. He said, "My list is pretty small." I said, "Is it over 100?" He said, "No, it's 92 people." and I said, "Good!" He said, "Good? How is that good, I only have 92 people on my list." I said, "Because we have 92 people who care enough about you to have subscribed to your list." I said, "What do you mail them?" He said, "I don't really mail and very... I don't mail them." [laughter] And I'm like, "Okay, good! Good, we haven't screwed up the relationship with a bunch of spam." I said, "Now, we have 92 people who care enough about you to have subscribed to your list and now we're going to come up with a strategy to engage them and figure out what we really want to do with those people. What we're going to offer them." So no matter where you're starting right now, just remember. You have the same ability, the same ability that I did, that the guy I talked to last week did, to go ahead and start creating a relationship with those people. Don't think of them as your list, think of them as the human beings. The real people. Evan Pagan did a really great thing years and years ago. He looked out his... He was living on the coast in Santa Monica and he looked out as window down the coast of California, and he said, "There's about a million people that I can see with my eye right here. About a million people live in this strip of land." He said, "That's the same number of people that are on my list.", and he said, "When I stopped thinking about my list as my list, and started thinking about it as a million people, I started speaking to them differently. I told them stuff that mattered to me, and therefore I started to matter to them."
Igor: ?That's a powerful phrase. That's a really powerful quote. I'm probably going to steal it and I'm going to use it in the next show.
Jonathan: ? Okay. [laughter]
Igor: ?And I'm going to say that they came up with it. No, I'm going to said I came up with it. I mean, just for the record, just so we're clear.
Jonathan: ? [laughter]
Igor: ?So tell me Jonathan, what exactly does that mean to build a relationship with your list?
Jonathan: ? Well you had Andre Chaperone around a few weeks ago?
Igor: ? ?Yup.
Jonathan: ?People think I don't have any mentors, because I've been doing it so long, and I'm so freaking old, man. But I do. I do have a lot of mentors and a lot of people that I look at. So one of the things that Andre does, is, and you probably talked about this too, is he creates an avatar of exactly the kind of customer that he wants to attract into his world, into his business. The kind of people who will subscribe. So you create this avatar and then you start to know who that person is. They're 38 years old, they have a job that they hate, they have two kids, they'd like to make an extra few thousand dollars, they're worried about their future. There's a world view and a belief system that they have and that they encompass. When you start to market with the avatar in mind, you know this people like the back of your hand. So this is your opportunity to start engaging them. The way that you do that, is you tell them what they already know. You tell them, you remind them that you already know that they're trying to make it in this business. Or, I mean, a lot of people are not in internet marketing. So look at a niche outside that.
Igor: ? ?Well most of my listeners, I think, are in the internet marketing niche.
Jonathan: ?Of course, of course. It works if you're if you're a surfer. If you're a guy, if you're the same guy, you're frustrated, but your passion is surfing, well you want to surf. So if you want to surf, if you want to get out on the beach, then we start to talk about the language of surfing. And we start to talk about what it's like to catch that wave. We start to talk about how hard it is to get up in the morning. It's like the metaphor is the last the same. You have to wake up in the morning, it's cold. You have to get your board attached to your car, you have to drive down to the beach and it's still not warm, and then you have to jump in this cold water and paddle, paddle, paddle, paddle out. All for this seven second ride. [laughter] You're spending hours of practice.
Igor: ? ?Dude, sounds like my sex life, honestly.
Jonathan: ? [laughter]
Igor: ??Honestly, I have to wake up early in the morning, make breakfast, it's cold.
Jonathan: ?Right! [laughter]
Igor: ? ?I hate it.
Jonathan: ? I won't go there specifically, but, you know, that's the thing. There's the seven second ride in email marketing, is the hitting the send and then checking the stats to see what happened. But there's a lot of prep that has to go into that. You've heard people say, "Well it's not hard but it's not simple." It's not hard to do this step by step process, because all you have to do is just sit down and do it but, it can be frustrating to do it. Sometimes there are a lot of steps, but you take those steps and you engage that because you want that seven second ride. Then you want to once you're out there, and all that work has been done, it's only another four minutes to paddle out for another ride. So the closer you get to the beach, and with your board in hand, now you can go out there and you can you can ride all morning. I think that's what it is. We have a phrase in our business called The Long Game, and whenever we want to do something, our V.P. of Operations asked me, and my business partner Tim, "Is that the long game? Is that what we're doing? Do we want to sell this thing, or run this J.V. or do this promo? Is it going to pay off down the line? Is it going to serve our customers? Is it something that we can scale? Is it something that we can promote to our existing list? Does it fit into place?" And if we're not playing the long game, it's not something that we do. That's really the key, is especially when you are starting out, or you're in the early stages of your career, is invest in a great auto responder. That has good deliverability. Invest in a program like Lead Pages. Because everything you do, you're going to do anyway. You don't want to put your names in some crappy service. You don't want to send your traffic that you're buying or that you're getting into some junkie squeeze page where no one's going to opt in. You do it correctly. You build your list and then you start mailing them. We use a soap opera sequence for initial engagement, that just gets people excited. I hope it does. If they unsubscribe, then that means they weren't excited, but most of the time people opt into our list, and they get on one of our sequences, and then they're, hopefully, after five, seven, ten emails, "I like this guy. I'm going to pay attention to him." And that's what you want. You want people who want to pay attention to you.
Igor: ?Absolutely, because attention is the new currency. I mean, have to battle, even I think it's more than half to battle these days. Now that people have the attention span of a sponge.
Jonathan: ? [laughter]
Igor: ?To get people's attention. I mean it's not the marketing, that's the challenge. Getting them to actually pay attention to your sales videos, to your sales pages, to your emails, to your text message, through Facebook posts. That's the difficult part these days, and I agree, getting that attention is critical. Now I want to circle back a little bit. You mentioned the avatar. Yes, Andre Chaperon talks a lot about the avatar. In fact, almost anyone who's serious about making money online, does. I was just speaking to coaching client earlier today, I was telling him the exact same thing. I said, "Wayne, look. It all comes down to how intimate you are with your market. How deep do you know them." And another thing you mentioned, which is really powerful, is that your ideal client avatar, it's not really about how old he is. I mean you want to know how old he or she is because that will tell you their world view and a belief system, as you put it Jonathan. Now, I have my vision of what avatar is, of what my ideal client is, is just basically I imagine a body bag. Okay? With a bunch of beliefs. It's like a walking belief fur ball, if you will.
Jonathan: ?By the way, we call it the tumbleweed of believes, because that's what happens. People, they tumble around and their whole life they pick up beliefs.
Igor: ?Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. So the marketing process, the email marketing process for me, is to join in on the conversation that's already happening in their mind, and especially if I can locate a faulty belief. Alright? A belief that I know is not true, that believe that I know isn't serving them for example that they want to be rich, but at the same time they feel like they shouldn't be wanting to be rich, because being rich is a bad thing. Right? There is a bunch of things. Crooked beliefs like that. So joining them in that conversation, it proves to be the most effective thing that email marketing can do, in my opinion. Because there's a great saying in copywriting, "Don't talk to me about a your weed whacker, talk to me about my crabgrass." In another words, "Don't talk to me about your solution, or talk to me about my problems."
Jonathan: ?[laughter] Right!
Igor: ? ?That's what people want to hear.
Jonathan: ?That's right. And the avatar, we do have a carefully crafted avatar, and they have a name and they have a gender, and they have an age. But it's not so much that we're talking to that person with that gender and that age and that marital status and that how many kids they have, a lot of people will have those same beliefs. What I found that was really interesting, Andre talks about this in one of his courses, a couple of them actually. He says, "You have your avatar, and it's a 49 year old, overweight woman who's divorced. They live on the coast. So, we've got this avatar, now you speak to that person. That's the one you speak to. You speak to their believes. But, you're still going to get a 25 year old woman from Ohio, is still going to hear and if that belief system is present in those people, it doesn't matter that your avatar has an age and a gender." We used to advertise only, we had a product exclusively for women. We never even bought male media, and still 25% of the customers that came through were men. So how did that happen? I don't know.
Igor: ? ? I'll tell you. You want to know? It's because of the sexual revolution, man.
Jonathan: ?[laughter]
Igor: ?We got women with balls, and we got man with, you know, with other parts. Basically it's all mixed up. It used to be a time when a man used to provide, and the woman used to stay home. Now it's not the case. Now it's equal. So now you got muscular men, I'm sorry, women that are more dominant. And you've got a more feminine type of men. I think it's logical that you're getting 25% men clients.
Jonathan: ?Well the other thing that was interesting, and we noticed this with some of our... We saw an eczema product a few years ago. I thought, "Okay, we're targeting..." This is a great example of the avatar. We're targeting the 50 year old person with eczema. They were they were typically a woman. What we learned, is after we sold thousands of these packages, we learned that 30-40% of the people who bought the product, these are the people who pulled their money out of their pocket and gave it to us, right? Enter the credit card in the form, they don't have eczema. So we asked them, "Why are you buying this if you don't have eczema?" They're like, "I'm buying it for someone else. I'm buying this for my dad. I'm buying this for my son. I'm buying this for my spouse." So you get a lot of that. When you speak to the avatar, people who aren't in the avatar, but know the avatar, they will sometimes buy the product simply to give to the other person. That's a real powerful way of looking at your marketing. Not to mention that it makes targeting so much easier when you're buying traffic on Facebook, or if you're buying into solo and you know you can choose, cherry pick a list that has those qualities or those people in there. Again, it's not those people, so much that it is those people with the belief system that you know you can help.
Igor: ?Yeah, and you can never go too deep on that, by the way. Like, you can go into their political beliefs, into their religious beliefs, which of course, the religious beliefs and political beliefs extend into their secondary beliefs. Like if you're a liberal, you believe that if you make an extra $2000 today, that means that children in Africa will get $2000 less.
Jonathan: ? That's... [laughter]
Igor: ?In my opinion, of course, that's a false belief, but if you want to argue about that with a liberal, then you're in trouble.
Jonathan: ?If you do make an extra $2000, my belief is, well God, if you really care about those children in Africa, you can take some of that $2000 and you can send it to them. [laughter]
Igor: ??Exactly, exactly.
Jonathan: ?Because you didn't take it from them. That's what's so beautiful. With sales, it's not like people have a fixed budget for X. I mean they say they do, but they lie. Because anybody that went down to buy a Ford and came home with a Mercedes decided sometime between the time they left the house and the time they got back to the house, that this Mercedes is a much better decision.
Igor: ? ?And a wise decision. A wise decision. [laughter]
Jonathan: ?[laughter]
Igor: ?Seriously. Money isn't the zero sum game. So is success, of course. I want to circle back to what you said about 40% of your clients purchasing the product for someone, instead of for themselves, and I did this for my wife. My wife, she has acne problems. Like her face sometimes gets covered with things and she really, really struggles to deal with that. So I went online and I found an info product on Click Bank, out of all places, which basically said, "Look, there's a way to cure acne, even if you tried all the medications, all the pills, all the rubs and everything, all the lotions and potions." So I purchased it and it basically it was around food. So when I had the read that thing myself, it was an e-book and then I went ahead and they sort of told my wife about it. Now, the sad part, of course she didn't listen, and she usually doesn't listen to me. So that was sort of a wasted effort.
Jonathan: ? Well what I learned, and it's interesting because I think all married couples have that. All couples have that. My wife wonders why I'm doing something, and I said, "Oh so and so told me to do it." She said, "I told you to do that five years ago." [laughter] Like, "Yeah, but you told me."
Igor: ??"Yeah, but I never listened." [laughter]
Jonathan: ? I wasn't paying attention, I'm sure. I don't even remember you actually saying that. But that really speaks to the fact that that when someone has a problem and the problem is no longer internalized, it's externalized, you get to hear about someone's relationship, or their acne, or whatnot. Now, that's something that you care about. I mean, you care about your wife because you married her, you love her, and you want her to feel good about herself. There's all there's a whole tumbleweed of beliefs around helping your wife feel good about herself, for helping your husband feel better about himself, or helping your boss feel like he's a good boss. We have this naturally built in. It's interesting how the avatar, it's almost like an avatar extension. It extends, it's like an octopus, its tentacles all around. Igor doesn't have acne, but, yet he went out and bought this book. So it's just fascinating when we start to look at avatars. When we go deep we find out what people really believe in. When we find out what they believe in, we can know, like you said, join the conversation that's already going on in their head.
Igor: ?Back from my coaching selling days when always used to sell my $15000 a year coaching program, I would do it on the phone. Like I would generate the lead on my list and within about seven days they would like me enough to submit the application and talk to my assistant, then talk to me. So naturally when you're selling something than that expensive which requires commitment, the motivation to take action should be pretty darn powerful. Right?
Jonathan: ? Right.
Igor: ?If I was talking, as for the most part, if I was talking to a male, and my ideal customer avatar would be someone over the age of 25, usually with a little child, maybe even a couple of kids, works a blue collar job, covers the bills just enough to get by, but not you know not serious, wife usually works too. So it's just a regular middle class American family. So a lot of times I would talk to these guys and they would talk about their family. So they would say something like, "I want to be a good father. I don't want to say no to my children, I want to be able to buy them the toys they want. I want to send them off to a good school." So a lot of times all I had to do to trigger that motivation, which they couldn't trigger within themselves, was to ask more questions about the kind of father they are right now, compared to where they want to be, as well as, how their father was treating them back when they were little kids, which usually was something on the lines of, "He never bought me the toys I wanted. We never had much money and the always told me how we couldn't afford it." So that alone made sales extremely easy and it increased compliance within the coaching program, which in turn helped me generate more results for my clients. All that is triggered by one single belief, and that is 'To be a good father, you have to be able to provide.'
Jonathan: ? That's right. You know, people are driven by two things. They're driven by, and these are more meta-stuff than a single belief, they're driven by passion and pain. They want to move towards passion and they want to move away from pain. So when you can paint a picture like that, which is this pain, this pain of not serving your family, this pain of not taking care of your responsibilities, this pain of going back to the time when you were a kid, and now we have passion. Now we're talking about spending time with your family. You've actually dropped a brick, or built a wall that separates this past and this future and your product, your coaching. This for true with a lot of internet marketing things, or any sort of opportunity, once that wall is scaled, now there's a whole different future available to them. So it's a real powerful way of doing it. Again, it works with anything. I don't know why people like surfing. I guess why I like surfing. But let's take a woodworking project, right. You know there's that woodworking thing on Quick Bank. I don't work with wood. So I don't have a passion for it, but if you, do that all we need to do, I don't need to tell you why you love working with wood. I just need to remind you that you love it. You will come up with your own stories. I worked with an NLP guy many years ago, never figure out the reason why, You just need to know that they have a reason why. And if they have a reason why, they'll tell you. If you're working one on one with them, they'll tell you that story about their dad and how their dad had to go away on a business trip for two months and do something, training things so he could stay employed, so he could make the mortgage and put food on the table. Now, they will replace their own story in the future, because they see themselves as their dad. You know, you talked about politics and religion as being big drivers, but also family, the way we grew up, the things that we grew up with, the things that we were deprived of and the things that we were given or allowed to do as children. Huge, huge belief drivers. And all that stuff. I mean, we're not talking about this stuff so you can be a better psychologist. We're talking about this stuff because this is what goes in your email, man. Reminding people of those stories is what makes engagement so that when people read your second or third or fourth email, they're like, "Man, this guy knows me,"
Igor: ?Well sure, but honestly Jonathan, you kind of have to be psychologist. I mean, it's just inevitable, right? You just end up becoming a psychologist and oftentimes you're much better than the crooks that charge you 500 bucks an hour, to be honest.
Jonathan: ? Right.
Igor: ?I was talking to a friend today and another friend was just eavesdropping conversation, be like, "Igor, damn dude, yours you should have been a psychologist."
Jonathan: ? [laughter]
Igor: ?? But I don't want to tell him that I am, only I get paid better. Right?
Jonathan: ? [laughter] Right, right. And I've never had to go to college. I actually had one client, coaching client and we used to spend most of the time on his kids. I used to try to move the conversation away from his kids towards his business, because I thought he's paying me for business coaching I should give him business coaching. But I realize that the kids, after a while, the kids are his reason why. That is what's driving him. So if I can help him have a better relationship with his kids, however we have to get there is fine. You know, I'm not going to diss on the guy for needing to talk about a family issue, because the family issue was actually holding them back in business and so hey, it's your time man, whatever you want to talk about. That was a big light bulb for me. Sometimes we have to talk around the problem to actually get to the problem.
Igor: ?Oh yeah. I spotted that a couple years ago when I was doing aggressive coaching. How you will eventually develop a superpower. There will be one thing that people know you for. Whatever that is. For me to have to be solo ads, you're like, you've got a whole arsenal of them, but it's probably like pay traffic and scaling.
Jonathan: ?Yeah.
Igor: ?But at the end of the day, once you learn to trust someone the way our clients learned to trust us, we instantly become the source of advice on every single subject. I remember talking with a client and they would just follow me on Facebook, it would be like, "Oh dude, I see you and your wife got matching tattoos, which is awesome. Because that means you guys are really close." We are really close. Honey, I love you if you're listening to this, if you learned to speak English and actually listen to my podcast. So he was like, "You know I'm really jealous of that because I am not happy. You know, my wife does not get me. I'm making money and everything, but she doesn't support what I'm trying to do here, and it makes it so difficult," So we had to have a whole conversation about me now being a marriage counselor, and not a solo ads person, and sort advise him on how to communicate with his wife, to establish a channel of communication where they could actually talk about this stuff.
Jonathan: ?Sometimes that's the most important thing. If there's someone in your family or in your immediate vicinity that they haven't bought into what you're doing, they don't believe it, or they just resent it, you're never going to be successful. I certainly had to break up with a few people when I started the internet marketing thing because I didn't have a college degree attached, and a fancy house with a couple of nice cars in it. I mean it does now, but you have to go back to the time when my first internet meeting was the demonstration by Cisco Systems on how routers work. Their internet seminar was to teach us to buy Cisco routers. Then the next one was a bunch of hippies talking about putting their DVD's on this thing called the internet. So back then I didn't have a lot of support, because nobody knew what the internet was. My parents to this day are still not entirely sure what I do. But, I talked to my dad yesterday, and I said, "Well, the important thing is I haven't asked you for money for a couple of decades now, or help, or support, or anything." He said, "Well yeah." He said, "I guess that's the big one because you're able to actually do something on your own." I said, "That's the thing." I think a lot of people in the family thing, they're just concerned because they have their set of beliefs, they were told that you go to school and get a job and stay with that company and work your way up the ranks, and frankly, that's a great life, but that doesn't exist anymore. That ended back in the 90's.
Igor: ? ?90's? That ended back in the 70's, dude.
Jonathan: ?Yeah, actually, you know, I've got friends ,I was thinking about that. I'm like I have friends who would probably tell you that ended in the 50's. It just didn't look like it was ending. There's no loyalty with companies now. You need, as an entrepreneur, you need to find your value spot. You need to find out where you're good at serving people. I started asking, we were at the traffic and conversion seminar, and which is a great seminar, by the way, I hope you can make it next year. But I started asking people, instead of asking what they do, I would open up with "Who do you serve? Who's your market that you serve?" I get such different responses from people. Because when you ask them what they do, "Oh well, I build my list and then I that do this and I do that." But it's like "Who do you serve?" Now I'd be like, "Oh man, I serve people who need to speak Spanish because they want to get ahead in life, or they want to move to another country." They want to move somewhere. They want to move either in their physical being, want to move to another country, or do something, or they want to move in their business life. They want to change their own paradigm. When you start talking to people about who they want to serve, and who their customers are, now there's passion in what they say. So you'll find that inside yourself. Right? Find out who do I want to help. Who's worthy? Who the hell is worthy of my even help? Right? There's a lot of people like, "Well I want to help so and so, do this and that." I'm like, "Why, you don't even care about them." That's always nice once when I'll say that because it makes them think. Either is they say, "You're right, I don't care about them." Or they get mad, they're like, "I do care about that, man!" Then they start getting passionate about why they care about them. Now there's a foundation that you can actually build on.
Igor: ? You know it's funny because I sort of stumbled into solo ads. I don't know I'm going to become the solo guy.
Jonathan: ? I remember! On the Warrior Forum, yeah?
Igor: ?Oh yeah, that just sort of happened in a way. I didn't even realize I was becoming one, till Devon Brown, a good friend. I called him up and I'd be like, "Devon, look. I just decided to part ways with my old coach, and I had my you a lot and you seem like a great guy. I wanted you to coach me. How much is your coaching?" He'd be like, "Dude, I don't want to coach you. I want to steal your stuff. You're this mastermind. [laughter] You're like someone I admire." I'm like, "What?!" And so that was like a big ‘Ah ha moment', it's like, "Oh. I'm a guru? Already?" It's only been five and a half years."
Jonathan: ?[laughter] Well, you always spoke your mind and you did stuff with passion. I was kind of offline when you had your big epiphany, but I just remember that you were some dude who'd comment on stuff, on the Warrior Forum to now everyone's talking about your products. Your solos that you send out and your traffic. We send people to you. I recommend you. If people are in the biz ops space and the MMO space. I've got a list of people who we mention, but... I have never even tested with you, man, fact is, but some of my clients have, and some of the people I work with have, and a lot of people I know have, and they say you’re good. You basically went from a guy looking for approval, if I could say, to a guy with the authority. That was like, that's a huge transition. I felt like I missed it because I was on vacation when a lot of it happened. I saw you, you seized the reins and you became the guy that a lot of people wanted to be. You also cared about what you sold. I know a lot of people out there selling solo ads, or traffic, or e-mail traffic, or drops, or whatever. Whatever nomenclature, whatever wording or name we want to give it, but not a lot of people really care about the outcome and look at you. You care about the outcome because you've been doing it now for long enough to have established a relationship. The internet is also about transparency, whether you like transparency or not. Sometimes we don't like transparency, but if you were scamming people, we would all know. [laughter]
Igor: ? ?Oh yeah, by now you would definitely know.
Jonathan: ?You know, it's like, "Oh that guy. He fooled everybody. He did a great job for four years, but now no longer." No man! Now more than ever!
Igor: ?Well, first of, thank you. I truly appreciate the words of encouragement. To be honest with you, Jonathan, obviously a part of me wanted to become great at what I was doing. But, for the most part, I've been just focusing on behavior. That's what I tell my students as well. "If you constantly focus on your goals as in results, there's only so much you will do. But, if you create goals that are behavior oriented and habit oriented, you will achieve so much more."
Jonathan: ?That's right. Wake up, chop wood, carry water. Yes? That's the old Zen saying, is you wake up, you have your list and your list is 'Find a new traffic' first.
Igor: ? ?Find it, optimize it, build a funnel, build a new offer.
Jonathan: ?Test a new squeeze page. Track the whole thing and see what happens.
Igor: ?You know it's funny, I was talking to Pat Patterson earlier today about the potential of interviewing him for the show, and he's somebody who went from, I think it was a zero to $12,000 a month in ten months, in a power network, amazing story. I'm definitely getting him on the show, but it's interesting. He mentioned that early on, for the first three months, he would set a goal to make 500 bucks. And he would fail. He would make nothing. Then he said, "You know what? Screw it. My goal is to get five opt ins a day." Not even money, like it is, "I need five opt ins per day", and that's that was his goal. Once hit that goal, he went to ten opt ins per day, then fifteen opt ins per day, then twenty opt ins. So he just gradually increased those goals. What you think about it, it's so different from what most people do, because most people, they set monetary goals. But he set, the opt-in goals which, is something has to preceded the money, right? You won’t make money unless building, or getting opt-ins. You won’t make money unless you're getting e-mail open, so on so forth. I find it to be a very, very cool idea, which I believe more people should deploy in their businesses. What do you think?
Jonathan: ?You soften up your goals. You want to make X. number of dollars, but it's like, "Well, people aren't buying my thing, so let's just try to get five people to opt in today." Now if you can't get the five opted ins a day, then maybe you should test some different ads, and say, "Well I'm just going to get ten people to click on my ad a today. If I can just get ten people to click on my ad a today, then I know I can rotate a couple or squeeze pages and I'll probably find one that works. Then once I have one hundred people on the list, then I might make a sale." I think that's a great idea. I think you always want to break things down into something that's actually doable, but it's got to be something that is part of the process. You said, no one's going to buy the thing without opting in, and no one's going to opt in till they get to the squeeze page, and no one's going to get to the squeeze page until they click on the ad. So you've got this whole, we talked about it in the Academy, this whole cascading metrics. Right? You've got X number of people on the list, and you've got X number of dollars on the other end. Well, there's this big cascade in between that. You mail a 100,000 people, and maybe 20,000 open, and maybe 1,500 people click, and maybe 500 people opt in, and maybe 20 people buy the lead product or the OTO. Then maybe eight fill out your coaching thing, and then maybe you get one coaching client, right. So, you look at it in the cascade. It's nice to focus on the end result, the money the dollars in the bank, but that other stuff needs to be done anyway before that money's going to hit the bank account. So, if you're having trouble setting goals because the monetary ones are never reached then just pick, a softer metric. Unopened rate, and just if you can't get people to even click through, then obviously your open rate's bad, then just say, "You know what? I'm going to try to get a 20% open rate today." Whatever it has to be because when you get good at one part of that, it naturally affects every other part of that cascade. Then when you do it regularly, like you said it's a behavioral thing, there are going to be days when, like it or not, there's going to be money hitting your bank account. You're probably going to like it.
Igor: ??Yeah, you probably get like the money, for sure. [laughter]
Jonathan: ? [laughter]
Igor: ?It's very, very interesting that you chose to mention the cascade, because for me, back in the Warrior Forum days when I was just trying to climb up the ranks if you will, I did focus on the opt ins as well. Like I wanted to get the highest possible opt in rates. That was my goal. I didn't even think in terms of sales. Sales did happen eventually, but the first thing that I focused on was opt in rates. Eventually once they felt comfortable, getting people on my list, getting tons of people on my list and converting pay traffic, fee traffic, any kind of traffic into opt ins, then I had enough mental energy and new desire within me and the audacity of course, to say, "You know what? I want one sale. Like I'm getting so many opt ins, there's probably a way for me to get at least one sale out of all these."
Jonathan: ?[laughter] One person, somebody in this giant list wants the thing I'm selling.
Igor: ?Yeah, it's just that the first sale was amazing. The first affiliate promotion I've done for Dan Brock's “Deadbeat Millionaire.” I still remember that. I still remember the email, as well. It was emailed to 25,000 prospects, not even customers and I made like 19 sales. I landed on the same leader board as some of the top Click Bank gurus at the time were doing million dollars launches, with a list that small, it was such a huge win for me that that moment I knew there was just a matter of time before I go full time.
Igor: ?That's right. Talking about the small list, I mean Andre's first promotion, he loves to talk about it, it was a list of 750 people and he did 70,000 of commission on that. That inspired me. When we launched our Academy, we had a buyers list, small buyers list for one of our products. It was 8-900 people and we wanted to test it with that first. Because these were our customers, we wanted to see if they really liked it. We created this kind of complicated process that they had to jump through, but the point was, is that we did, I think 900 customers, and generated $52,000. Because I had heard what Andre had done, and I'm like, "Well I want that level of engagement. I want to be able to do that. I want to have an offer that so perfect for this group of people that I've built, that I can actually have - like it resonates so much that a huge percentage of the people are going to buy." and That's that first part of the list, that cultivation part, where you're mailing them and where there's a relation between who you are and who they are, and they can connect with you and relate to you. Either as someone who's like them, or someone who's been like them, or as someone who's doing something that they want to do. So when you hit that leader board, you must've been blown away, because here's your name next to all these other people.
Igor: ?You know, I think there's two more elements which I want to add to your list that you've just sort of listed here. When it comes to bonding with your audience, and even resurrecting a dead list and that is basically A) their belief in the fact that you get them. Right, their belief in the idea that you understand exactly where they are, where they came from and where they want to be. And of course, the exchange of, I mean monetary exchange. I mean, getting $50,000 from a list of 800 people would not have been possible unless these people gave you money earlier which means they trusted you enough already. I think that's important to mention that so there's no confusion, but that's the power of the buyer. Right? Buyer is buyer, is a buyer.
Jonathan: ?That's right. Just so everybody knows because, you know, let's be totally transparent. We then did that list, that promo to our list of prospects, and we made about the same amount of money with 12,000 people. Because there was no relationship there, I mean there is a relationship, but they hadn't given us money. So when you have a buyer, you mail your buyers’ list, they already like you. There he bought something from you once, and they already trust you enough to know that you've solved their problem before; you're probably going to be able to do it again.
Igor: ?Alright, Jonathan. Man, this has been tremendous. We actually went double on our usual time of 25 minutes or so, which is awesome. I hope our List Builders are digging it. So any last word of advice for our list builders?
Jonathan: ?Yes. So I learned this piece of advice from one of my friends and mentors who lives in Hawaii here, and I asked him how he was so successful, and he said, "It's really easy. I built a big list and they never screwed them over." [laughter]
Igor: ? ?Good.
Jonathan: ?And that's it. Don't sell something that you wouldn't sell to your own mom. When you're out there, it's kind of hard in the biz op space, right? Sometimes we're promoting stuff.
Igor: ? ?There's a lot of junk out there.
Jonathan: ?Well, we wouldn't even want out moms to know that were involved with it, right? Well if that's the case, then maybe don't promote it. And if you do believe in it, whether it's Moby or Empower or whatever, there's always a new program of the week. Believe in it, man. Do it. Find out what it's all about. Dig in and do it. Because if my mom ever wanted to learn about email marketing, I would have no qualms sending her into the Academy and showing her. Well, she probably wouldn't understand. She'd then really be confused about what I do, but the point is that the biggest reason people have a problem with their list, is because they violate the expectation. So someone opted in your list, they opted in because they want some advice, they opted in because they want a connection. They want some help. They want to hear some stories. There's a problem that they have that you can solve for them. So keep that in mind. Really solve that problem. We turned down probably eight, maybe eight or nine of ten JB's that people do with us. We don't do reciprocals. People think we're stupid. They're like, "Hey man, I'll mail for you and you mail for us." I'm like, "Okay, well send me your product, and we'll go through it, and if it's a good fit..." And they're like, "Nobody ever asked me to go through their product, I mean it is a sales page. It's a course." I'm like, "Well if it's not a good fit with my customers, then I'm going to violate the expectation and then I'll never be able to promote anything." And they say, "Well if you don't promote me, then I'm not going to promote you." And I'm like, "Okay, I don't care." Listen if my thing is not a good fit for your list, you shouldn't promote it. That's ultimately it. And that's something that Andre and Jay Abraham and gurus far and wide, young and old teach, is don't violate that expectation. Because a soon as you violate it, that's pretty much the last time you're going to be able to get away with it. What we say in the course, if it's all about money sucking - money sucking is great and you should be focused on money sucking, sucking the money out of your list.
Igor: ? ?You should stop saying money sucking. [laughter]
Jonathan: ?It's like because people are like, "I'm all about the money sucking out of my list." I'm like, "Yeah, but if you want to do it more than once, you better make sure that you actually are delivering some value, even with the affiliate promo that you're promoting."
Igor: ?I would like to just sort of like piggyback on that and say that when I was growing in Quick Bank products on my list, it was the very first, sort of real money I was making. I always went to the Warrior Forum to the reviews section of the Warrior Forum and I checked the reviews to see whether or not people had anything good to say about it. I would not promote the products that would not live up to expectations, because you're right. You're right. Violating expectations is the worst thing you can do with your list.
Jonathan: ?That's right, and there's a lot of great products out there to promote. Or if there's not, maybe that's your next product. [laughter] That's what I learned.
Igor: ?I mean there are definitely more great legit products out there today, than there ever were because the industry's grown.
Jonathan: ?Absolutely, yeah. Now more than ever. I mean, I'm blown away by the products out there. So take care of your list, and they'll take care of you.
Igor: ?Sweet. So that was Jonathan Mizel, everybody from, which you should check out, by the way. I have nothing else to say besides thank you so much for taking a full hour to sit down with us today and rap about some of these amazing, well I don't know what to even call them, list building nuggets, email marketing nuggets. Until next time, have a great day.
Jonathan: ? Thanks and aloha.
Thanks for listening to The List Building Lifestyle Show, make sure to subscribe on iTunes or Google Play to never miss an episode because who knows just one conversion tactic we share on the show might double your list and double your business. Download the transcript of today’s episode and all future episodes at and don’t forget to claim your complimentary copy of “The Wealthy List Builder’s Survival Guide” at This is Igor Kheifets until next time we talk, have a good one.
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Who Is Igor Kheifets

Igor Kheifets is the 3rd highest-earning super-affiliate in the internet marketing niche.

Igor’s 2-step system has helped him consistently rank as the highest-earning and the highest-converting (measured in commissions earned per click) for industry’s leading vendors including but not limited to Matt Bacak, John Crestani and Anthony Morrison.

Igor boiled down success in affiliate marketing to a set of predictable easy steps anyone can take to generate commissions.


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