This episode features a living copywriting legend John Carlton.
John’s a ragged old dawg in the game of persuading others to open up their hearts and wallets from a distance.
He’s also world’s most ripped off copywriter.
Hold on to your socks as John takes you on an express coaching session in selling, marketing and persuading prospects in digital print.
This program is brought to you by the ThePodcastFactory.com.
Igor: Welcome back to “List Building Lifestyle”, this is Igor Kheifets and I’m hosting John Carlton. Now John is someone who I respect a lot. He’s one of my mentors. He’s one of the people who influenced my success in a great way through books and mentorship and he’s considered to be the most ripped off copywriter in the world because everybody pretty much knocks off of his copy. So John, how are you today, my friend?
John: I’m good, Igor. How are you?
Igor: I’m just pumped up to do this, you have no idea. First off, thank you so much for taking the time to do get on the show. I don’t know anyone who is busier than you and is more protective of their time so I truly appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me. I would like to start with a discussion of a concept which you talk about a lot everywhere in your books, in your seminars, on your blog at john-carlton.com and that is “selling off the back of your heels”.
Igor: So go ahead and you know…
John: So basically the idea of selling from your heels is – the larger concept is salesmanship. The big discovery that I made is that salesmen or salespersons or salespeople or whatever, it doesn’t matter, the idea of salesmanship is the idea of being able to persuade someone, being able to take someone who is either on the fence, they are thinking well I might do that or I might buy this and maybe in the future sometime and knock them off the fence. Get them to make a commitment. Get them to choose to come on board, to your community, to buy what you’re selling, to sign up for what you have, whatever you want them to do. The persuasion thing that occurs is basically salesmanship. Most people aren’t natural salesmen, in fact the vast majority of people. It’s an almost non-existent muscle in most people’s heads. However, if you want to strengthen it, if you want to become a better salesman your life will get better in all respects and this is because everyone sells all the time. If you’re married you sold your spouse on marrying you. If you have a different job than you had a few years ago, you sold someone on hiring you or if you have a business where you’re selling stuff then you’re persuading people to buy what you have and if you’re a successful entrepreneur then your salesman chops are getting better and better. The problem with salesmanship is that most people when they start out have a bad idea of what salesmanship is. They have a negative opinion of salesmanship. In fact, there are a number of gurus out there that keep talking about learn to sell without selling. That’s a phrase that resonates with a lot of people because people see selling as being pushy, obnoxious. Rather than thinking about the persuasive nature of it they think more about the pushy nature of it where you’re trying to force people to make decisions that they wouldn’t otherwise make. This is not the kind of salesmanship that I’m talking about. I’m talking about if you have a good product or you have a good service and someone you deal with could benefit from it and they are just not ready to buy or they are not committing to buy and you know that their life would be better if they did buy then salesmanship is what is required to get them to commit. Trying to do that without using the classic salesmanship tactics, tools and strategies that top marketers have is a fool’s errand. You have to sell. I have been in events where I’ve spoken where I followed other speakers who talked about selling without selling. I know what they meant but people really started buying their stuff and it kind of pissed me off because they were working off the backs of real salesmen and they were saying you don’t need to be a real salesmen, you just need to have these super secret tactics that will magically get people to buy what you have and it’s sheer nonsense. I have gone up on stage and I said how many people here would like to sell without selling and half the room will raise their hands and I’ll say, I’d look them in the eye and say, “Grow up”. To be able to sell, you need to understand how salesmanship works. One of the problems that people have besides not even liking salesmanship, not wanting to admit that selling is part of their business angle is that they sell from their heels. In other words, a good salesman will come forward and give you a good number of reasons to buy, reasons why buying is going to make your life better, that things will change for the positive once you get into the world that the salesman is presenting. A person that is unskilled in salesmanship will do what I call selling from the heels. They have one foot behind them and they are kind of on their heels and they say well here is what I’ve got, do you want it, nah you probably don’t, never mind and they are ready to bolt at the first sign of someone saying “no” or the first sign of someone waffling or someone saying, “Eh, I don't know”. They just don’t have anything else in their arsenal to be able to get that persuasion process to move forward so they just give up. Moving past that sense of “I don’t want to be a salesman, I’ll give it one tiny little meek try – here is what I have and I don't know if you want it fine but …” that isn’t going to make you a super successful marketer. To be able to move into the ranks of the successful entrepreneur and the successful marketer, you have to understand salesmanship. That is your number one tool for persuading people to buy, to become part of your world, to do whatever it is that you need them to do for you to move forward with your life and your business. That was a little over rout, Igor but basically it is so central to everything that I tend to rant on this a lot. When I’m in room full of people or I meet people and I know they are rocky on idea of salesmanship, they don’t like the idea of selling, they think it’s too pushy, if I can just move them to the point where they say, “Okay, I get it, salesmanship doesn’t have to be pushy, it doesn’t have to be negative, let’s learn the tactics.” If I can do that I’ve made great strides forward in helping these people get what they want in life.
Igor: Well, that’s what you did for me with the “License to Steal”. I remember downloading the recording of “License to Steal” which is a seminar you ran where you dissected three sales letters and as you were doing that you kind of explained all of these concepts. You go deep on this psychological level of everything. To be quite honest, I could not even afford to buy those so I downloaded those off a blackhead site. [laughter]
John: Shame on you.
Igor: I’m not proud of that. [laughter] So as I was studying what you’ve done and going through the sales letters and listening to your advice, one thing that comes clear is that selling is the life blood of your business. For a living, I sell traffic but it’s nothing if you can’t sell. I remember early on what really helped me get hip on selling or should I say it helped me get sold on the idea that salesmanship is important because I was brought up, I was supposed to become a junior engineer in electronics, very analytical minded person, really not social type, I was overweight. I couldn’t talk to people, look them in the eye. So I was not a natural born salesman. I started reading books like “Natural Selling” by Michael Oliver. I started reading books like “Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets”, your book where you explain what copywriting is and why it’s important where again you do this, you explain why selling is important. I remember “Sales 101” I think by Zig Ziglar. There is also a great program called, “Salesmanship: The Noble Profession” which you can get on YouTube, I think, you just type in Zig Ziglar’s “Salesmanship: The Noble Profession”. Extremely well laid out program to convince you, to show you that salesmanship is freaking critical for your success.
John: That’s right.
Igor: Well, so John now I want you to open up. I would love to know what kind of issues or problems or challenges you’ve had with salesmanship when you started because I know you just didn’t get it right on the first time.
John: Absolutely not Igor, I was much like you. I had a negative view of selling. I wasn’t versed in salesmanship but to me a salesman was like the guy in a loud plaid jacket at the used car lot who sold you a car you didn’t want and he was one step removed from a con-man essentially. What I learned very quickly when I became a freelance copywriter was that whole image I had of the salesman was just plain wrong. You can look at a guy like P.T. Barnum in a negative way as a guy who sold a lot of tickets to see a lot of circus shows where people kind of felt ripped off or it wasn’t really what he said. You know he had “goat boy” and the “bearded lady” and conjoined twins and all that stuff and he would play them up with stories and the people would come in and sometimes the animals were obviously sewn together and or the bearded lady was really a man and there were all of these kind of things that lead people to believe that guys like P.T. Barnum were a negative influence but if you look at it in a different way in that P.T. Barnum gave people what they wanted which was a thrill. He was going around to rural America where people hadn’t seen a circus before or hadn’t seen sideshows; this was a big deal. They wanted the thrill and part of this was they wanted to come out and say “Aww, I saw it and it wasn’t that big of a deal” or “I saw it and it was amazing”, he brought something into their lives, something exciting, something different. He sold them on coming out in droves and it became an event. If you look at the good side of guys like P.T. Barnum, he’s appealing to needs in the human mind that aren’t addressed by just subsistence living. So there are negative ways to use salesmanship and anybody who sells an unethical product deserves to burn in hell for doing that. However, the same tactics that sell unethical products can be used to sell good ethical products and that’s the whole basis of my introduction to salesmanship and the way that I’ve presented salesmanship to other people. In the preface to “Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets to a Marketing Rebel” the book you were talking about, I say these tactics can be used for good or for evil. If you intend to use them for evil, I hope you rot in hell. I’m very, very clear on that. There is no reason why good marketers with good products who can help people, which are the marketers I like to deal with, there is no reason why they can’t use this same tactics used by the con-man to be able to sell good stuff. It’s about persuasion. You can persuade someone to do things and what they do, you can persuade them to do the right thing or you can persuade them to do the wrong thing. That realization, that “oh” salesmanship has a black eye, has a bad name in people’s minds because a lot of people have abused these tactics. But people have also abused nuclear power and abused being good looking and abused everything. It’s human nature that we have to balance out the good and the bad. We can’t go wondering out into the world, especially the business world thinking that everything is going to be rosy and hunky-dory and because we are good people nothing bad is going to happen to us. You can’t do that. If you get into a crowded market for example, let’s say the weight loss market which I don’t like dealing in myself, it is so full of money and it is such a large market that it attracts sharks, sociopaths and inherently nasty people. So if you walk in there and think I’m just going to be a good person, I’m going to be blind to all the bad stuff going on and I’m going to pretend that they don’t exist, you’re going to be somebody’s lunch. So you have to be aware of the enemy which is bad marketers doing bad things, using possibly the same tactics you’re using to sell your good stuff. So understanding this means that there is a lot of nuance, there is a lot of balancing, and a lot of deep understanding of what exactly is going on around you. What the nature of your competition is and what people want and a lot of marketers will sell people what they want but not what they need. A lot people go broke trying to sell people what they need and refuse to sell them what they want and the good marketer realizes there is a lot of both involved. The tactic that we like to talk about in salesmanship is first sell people what they want; you can sell them what they need later after you have earned their trust by providing good service, by giving them what they want and then slowly introducing them to what they need. That’s a standard tactic in a lot of marketing. For myself, the process started like you, Igor, with books because I was alone. I didn’t have any mentors back when I was staring out as a freelance copywriter and it moved very slowly but very effectively into finding some old school salesman who like Jay Abraham and I met Gary Halbert through Jay and a bunch of other guys whose names are probably not familiar to your audience. I found these old school guys that actually sold door to door, who had been salesmen for a long time before they discovered direct response which is instead of being face to face with one person you took that face to face salesmanship ability and put it into writing for direct mail or put it into audio or put it on broadcast media and reached thousands of people with the message instead of just one at the time and that was a big explosion of direct response. So realizing that these guys were using the same tactics they used to sell something face to face when they were selling to thousands of people at a time again in direct mail or broadcast. So when the web came along, the web of course is another vehicle for getting your sales message out there. There’s nothing magic about the web, it’s just what we use to do in direct mail and in broadcast which is TV and radio and things like that doing it on a much larger scale. So whereas with the direct mail piece, you could find lists that were maybe 200,000 people who were interested in a particular subject now with the web especially with a few things like adwords, you can now reach almost everyone on the globe instead of those 200,000 people who maybe had signed up for a magazine or had worked their way into some list by buying things and finding out about stuff. So online even small niche marketing areas are now exposed to the world so the number of people that are able to see this have been multiplied dramatically but it’s still the same process, the same dang process. I have got something for you, here is what it is, here is who I am, you can trust me I have creditability; here is some other people who bought it who liked it that would be a testimonial. Here is how much it is, here is why you should get it now because supplies are limited or whatever, here’s the cost, here’s what you do next which is the essence of direct response and what you do next is you either click on this link or you fill out your information or you send in your money or you go to this place or whatever the action is that is required and the transaction moves forward until a prospect becomes a customer then the customer becomes a repeat customer and then things get moving. That discovery of that process for me was a huge eye opener. I was like a total neophyte in the world of business. I didn’t even understand how business worked and a lot of people don’t. A lot of people think well a business man is assigned a business or he magically has a business or they don’t think about the process a business goes through to create a business, to create a product, to bring something to market, the risks that are involved, the responsibilities, the consequences, all of the stuff that is there is just beyond the non-business person’s immediate understanding. So when regular people become entrepreneurs they have to have a very fast learning process where they understand the nature of business, the nature of selling and the nature of how businesses not only survive but thrive which is a level up. But your first step is always comes back to salesmanship which is – I like to say a person who understands salesmanship can wake up stark naked in corn field in Iowa or somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and because they know how to sell very quickly, get back on their feet. Even if you lose everything, if you understand salesmanship, you understand that the capitalistic process sometimes involves bankruptcy, sometimes involves things not going well, sometimes involves competition coming and crushing you, there is a lot of different things that come in, it’s not a guaranteed rise from you’re at one level then you go to the next level then you got to the next so it’s all this smooth transitions. It’s a very rocky transition much like raising a family, much like falling in love with someone for a long period of time, keeping relationships going, much like having a job and keeping that job working for a long period of time. Anything over, that progresses, that changes, that evolves, when you understand how this stuff works, it all gets back to how businesses become larger and thrive and it’s a process where you have to get more savvy as you go, you have to learn your lessons, you have to keep going all built on this rock solid foundation of salesmanship. If it all goes away tomorrow, if you understand salesmanship, you can start building it right back up again. I have watched a lot of guys like Jay Abraham, Gary Halbert and these other mentors I had, they all went broke trying it out. In the early days, they had some success and then they would make mistakes, sometimes huge mistakes, they would lose it all. Then they would be right back in the game, they just brushed themselves off because money wasn’t the final thing. It wasn’t the when I get a million dollars I’m going to quit and retire; it was I want to build a million dollar business. There are ups and downs to doing that and there’s a lot of things that I don’t understand, it may be expensive lessons to learn as I go but if I understand that the whole thing rests on being able to persuade people, to make the decisions that I would like them to make then you’re rock solid because even when you have setbacks you’re going come back stronger than before. That realization was the thing that really made business in general come into focus for me that I finally understood, “Oh, we really are dealing in a different kind of world.” I was no longer a civilian who didn’t understand business. I started to understand business at it’s deepest levels. What motivated the business owners to do what they did? What motivated the writers to write what they did for the advertising? What motivated the decisions that were made along the way? Some dumb, some brilliant, some a combination of both and it was because it’s a process, all again undergirded by that basic foundation of understanding salesmanship. Does that make sense to you, Igor?
Igor: Oh yes, absolutely. I can listen to you rant for hours, man. Honestly, when I drive somewhere I just put you on and I consume all of this knowledge. I just want to add a little quote that I heard from Zig Ziglar. I was listening to one of his programs the other day. He said, “Security is the ability to produce.” That’s what I think you’ve been talking about up until this time.
John: Exactly, exactly. You heard good points. Zig’s a great guy. He’s a great guy to read up on. He was a voice in the wilderness for a long time too back in the 60s and 70s. He was good. Solid entrepreneurs understood how valuable his advice was and what he was presenting but he didn’t reach huge audiences for a long time and then he finally did and it was all very worthwhile. However, hearing the message whether it’s mine or Zig’s or anybody else’s, hearing it and then implementing it are two distinctly different things. The difference is someone like you, Igor, for example, you could have heard – everything you heard back when you were back in the former Igor, you could have heard everything that you heard, read everything that you read and still not have taken action. Somewhere along the line, you got sold on the idea that you’re going to put your fears aside that even though you’re not sure what’s going to happen. There is a lot of unpredictability ahead, uncertainty, you’re going to just say okay whatever it is I’m going to go in and start changing my life. Something sold you on that. It might have been an internal process. You sold yourself. It may have been with the help of someone else, maybe something you read or maybe something you saw in your experience but the combined total of all this stuff happening brought about this abrupt life change and that’s what happened to me when I became a freelance copywriter. I started to realize I really could make a go of this but I got to go deep on a lot of this stuff so I started tracking down these old school salesmen and taking to heart what they said. I would learn something from Jay and use it in the next letter I wrote. I hung out with Gary for over a decade just as a mentoree of him. Everything that he talked about and everything I learned from him, I wrote down, I also put into practice as soon as I could. I wanted to see if it would work for me. A lot of it did, some of it didn’t but that didn’t make it any less valuable. Knowing what doesn’t work is just as valuable as knowing what works so that process, that moment of change where everything happens, it’s like your life is going the way it’s going until that moment and the moment could literally just hearing something that makes it click into place for you or actually taking an action or doing something that changes things and then the rest of your life is very different than it was before. That moment it changed, most of us remember it very, very clearly. For me, it was reading “Think and Grow Rich”. I read it and the idea of goal setting was so foreign to me at that time. No one had ever told me that I could actually want something, create a plan to go achieve it and then put that plan into action and that is really how simple it was. You want something, fine, how would you get it, put a plan together and then the critical part put that plan into action actually implement it. Suddenly I became this goal setting and this goal achieving monster. It’s like I want this. I want this. A lot of it had to do with I want to become a recognized copywriter. I want to meet certain guys and mentor under them. I want to make a certain amount of money each month. All of these things started becoming rather than vague wishes or dreams they became solid goals with a plan to achieve them and then putting that plan into action was the key part. All of this was mind blowing to me and it all came from reading “Think and Grow Rich” which is an interesting book and it’s from the 30s but a number of people of my colleagues also point to that book as being the one just kind of light a fire under their butt. It made manifest something that had not even been in their mind at the time, which was most people lead their lives like Flotsam and Jetsam, they are just tossed about and whichever way the tide goes that’s the way they are going to go. They may wind up washed up on some shore somewhere and they may spend the rest of their life in the ocean. They don’t know and they have no control over it and they feel they have no control and that opposite of that is to start saying I want to go there and I’ll start kicking and I may go against the tide. I may have to find some other resources to help me go against the tide. There may be a lot of thing that I have to learn or people I have to meet or resources or networks I have to start being a part of to be able to make this happen but I know what I want to happen. I’m forming the plan as I go and I’m putting that plan into action. That’s the great dividing line in the world, the doers versus the dreamers who can’t get anything done.
Igor: Oh yeah and what worked for me, well first off there was an amazing desire to stop being broke. [laughter]
Igor: It was a ridiculous fear of ending up like my parents who I support now. The fear was just so great that I could not take action. Fundamentally speaking I believe what really helped was small wins.
Igor: Behavior oriented small wins, not just setting a goal, I want to make a million dollars and just sit there and ruminate about it. I’m like talking setting a goal of writing my first blog post, getting my first 50 subscribers on a list, learning how to build a squeeze page like all of these behavior oriented goals that collectively lead to me starting to make some money.
John: That’s right. Actually probably that first one was probably getting the blog together, actually having a blog to put a post up on.
Igor: Yes, yes.
John: Posting that first post, you probably know when you’re having that moment when you actually feel proud of what you’ve done. You actually sit back and say, “Wow, I pulled that off, I did that.” It’s a stunning moment of self-realization and empowerment and what you have to do is keep building on that. A lot of people sit back and they will talk fondly about the time they did something and had a small success and how great that was and geez had they stuck with it maybe something would have happened. Stick with it! If you’re doing it now, stick with it. That’s the way all of us – you don’t get to be my age in this business and I have a lot of colleagues my age and we sit around and we have a sum total of adventures, misadventures, blunders, and horrific disasters and we all laughed and the best stories we tell are about the disasters and the blunders because we learned more from those. All of the mistakes – I tell people I got to be a guru because I made almost every mistake that could be made and learned my lesson and went back and did it right and my only regret is that I didn’t make all of the mistakes back when I had the energy and the verve and the cojones to keep going. So the only lessons I didn’t learn were from the mistakes that I didn’t make. They were very few because I was a bull in a china shop. I was just out there making every single mistake there was but you’re right about that incremental goal setting stuff. My first goals were like pay the rent next month. Then suddenly I realized wow I got the rent covered for three months, I could relax. That was huge for me. Then it was I got the rent covered for the next year, I can actually buy a new used car. Each of these I recognized and actually it wasn’t “Think and Grow Rich”, it was some other book and I can’t think of it right now. It might have been a “Augmon You Know” book, it was a self help guide. I think that everything that I had so when I moved from a manual typewriter to an IBM Selectric, I think the old typewriter, I thanked it for its service and I put aside in a very honored place. If I gave it away or I donated it or even if I threw it away, I still had a moment of reverence for it because that tool brought me to that point where I had a new tool. I still do that today. When I got rid of my old Mac and got a bright shiny new iMac, I thanked the old one for its service, and I’m very, very conscious of how essential that tool was. Just those little things like that like being thankful. That whole idea of being grateful for what you have going, for helping others as you go, putting out a hand and helping someone else come up. In fact that was a vow I made early on when I had no mentors, I had no idea what I was doing. I was succeeding slowly and for every success there would be couple of blunders. I remember making a vow that if I made it, I was going to help other people make it too. I was not going to be the selfish bastard that most of the other people in the business that I met were, who weren’t sharing because they had a starvation mindset. They felt that if they shared anything with me it would somehow take away from their success. I just became very open about it. I’ll share everything. I’ll tell everybody everything they want to know. A number of writers that have made a lot money and have become very, very successful and are well known who can trace everything back to me giving them a hint or a tip that they couldn’t have got otherwise that kind of change the direction of their lives. I’m most proud of that. I didn’t make a dime off a lot of stuff but that made me proud because I have finally become that guy that was never there for me back in when I was struggling. So that’s been my greatest reward I think in the whole process.
Igor: Well ever since you started putting out your books and your wisdom out to the mass media, you have become that guy for a ton of people. I keep saying, but myself included, because a lot of what I do today and the way I do it is influenced by you. Obviously I study and I tell my students as well study Gary Halbert, study all the greats, Dan Kennedy. You can’t get enough. If you screw something up and something doesn’t work, rest assured if you go back to the basics and you’ll be able to fix it. It’s always about the basics.
John: That’s the theme of what we’ve been talking about. I just realized that we’ve been going on for about 40 minutes or so, you probably what to wrap this up. I’m losing my voice too. I could go on forever, Igor. It’s always been a pleasure talking with you. Guys like you, I think if your fan base can do anything they should dissect what it is that you have done to get to the point you’re at now and dissect that and think about how they can apply some of that stuff to their own lives; not just the energy level and the striving for doing it better next time and all that but the motivation for everything you’ve done. It’s a key. Every single successful entrepreneur you meet, there is a key point in there that makes them successful. Sometimes they have several points, usually though it’s just one or two because success is such a multi-headed monster. There are so many elements going in there. You need help. You need to find the right kind of help, maybe you just need resources, maybe you need to be part of a network, maybe you need to hire people – I know that was something you went through a lot was finding the right people to work with you to share the loads and doing things. But the motivations behind all of that were always about moving to the next level. It wasn’t about maintaining what’s going now but keep moving up, keep progressing, keep doing the right thing and going forward and don’t get down on yourself for making a blunder. Correcting mistakes, learning the lesson and going out and doing it right the next time so that would be my advice for your fan base.
Igor: Well, thank you. Again thank you so much and yeah I agree mistakes are learning opportunities, nothing more, nothing less. There is no point in beating yourself up over making a mistake and instead celebrate it. Make sure you don’t make it again next time and you’ll make more money.
John: I actually have made multiple mistakes and there are some things Igor that as you get older, you’re probably already at that age where you’re finding out there is a lot of lessons that you got to learn over and over and over.
Igor: Yeah, it’s all the fricking time. The more read, the more I live, the more I hire people like the same thing, it’s like the same stuff comes up over and over and over again up until and then the 17 th time that it finally sticks with me and I stop arguing about it and I start accepting it as it is.
John: Actually, you’ll make the same mistake again. One of the sayings that Gary Halbert and I used to share and love was just an old saying, “No good deed goes unpunished.” And what that means is that when you do something good for someone never expect to be rewarded or thanked or anything for it. If you do it, do it because it’s the right thing to do. Because often whether you loan people money or you give them an opportunity or you do some things, it will come back to bite you; this is just the way it is. So the phrase is “No good deed goes unpunished.” Experienced people will laugh and chuckle about that but the caveat to that is … but you still do the good deeds. That’s a lesson you’ve got to keep learning. Don’t get bitter, don’t get mad, it’s human nature to not want to thank the person who helped you. I don’t know why it is but it is that way and I never expect to be thanked when I help someone. I never expect a reward. I don’t expect anything other than my own personal pleasure from having done something good for a someone else to further – I feel my community is writers, copywriters, fiction writers, all types of writers, scribes. My ancestors were slaves. They couldn’t write what they wanted. Literacy was very in short supply in many times in history of civilization. Writers have only recently started to become celebrated or recognized for the value they bring to the world and I never forget that my ancestors would be astonished that I can write what I write just on Facebook and not get arrested or thrown in a dungeon somewhere or killed outright or squelched. This is a special time we live in and we are doing it on the blood and the sweat and the tears of the people that came before us. Never forget that. Civilization is a very fragile thing that needs a constant nurturing of good people with critical thinking skills.
Igor: Alright, alright. Wasn’t that quote by [inaudible 0:36:15.2] something about it needs to be replenished with the blood of patriots or something like that?
John: I think that was Thomas Jefferson but I’m not sure. Yeah, I’ve heard that. The tree of liberty must occasionally be nurtured or replenished, yeah, you’re probably right. That actually can be read both ways. I mean people can take dangerous ideas from that or they can take very noble ideas from that. So…
Igor: Yeah, well, [laughter] quite a positive note to end the show.
John: Just let me say that if you like this kind of ranting and it’s better edited, there’s not the ums and ahs and everything. My blog is just over 10 years now of archives on the blog john-carlton.com so I’ve been telling people lately just go there and start grabbing a few articles and read one a day, read two a day or whatever. You won’t get through it in your lifetime now because the archives are so deep. But if this kind of stuff, every single post I’ve made on the blog has been towards helping someone understand something a little bit better and sharing the lessons that I’ve learned in life.
Igor: You know I think I bought info products that had less value than your blog.
Igor: Because first off, I think I told you that I use your blog as a swipe file. I have a guy who works for me that part of his job is go on your blog every time you post a new article and take out the fancy words. You know the Carlton action verbs and all the fancy language so we can use it in our copy, in the email and the Facebook posts, everywhere and of course the wisdom. The wisdom is great. I still remember you post about Steve Jobs and the tribute you gave him, like that alone was a lot of value to me.
John: Oh yeah.
Igor: I wasn’t a Mac fan at the time but once I became – now I’m all about Mac and Apple and iPhone and stuff but once I became I learned to truly appreciate that. Cool so that’s john-carlton.com. Guys head over to the blog, bookmark it, make sure you read at least one article a day. It won’t take you more than 15 minutes to read. It’s an entertaining read too, very fun. Damn it there is a lot of value there. Cool so John, thank you so much and yeah like I said very grateful for you taking the time to sit down. I know you’re a really busy guy. It’s been a pleasure. It’s been a true pleasure and until next time.
John: Okay Igor, always a pleasure talking to you. Thanks
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